Topic of the Week 03/07: Did Lureen know Jack was gay?

[Penthesilea]

Another Monday, another TOTW  .

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This week's topic leaves much room for a broad range of perceptions, because the question applies to a time span of almost twenty years.

Did Lureen know Jack was gay?

.....and if so, when?

Do you think Lureen knew from early on? Maybe she just had an inkling? How about the phone call between her and Ennis? Or was she complete clueless?

Tell us your POV  .

[moremojo]

She probably had an inkling, but willfully deceived herself otherwise for many long years (one should never understimate the power of the human mind to rationalize the truth away). Her father's not-so-veiled contempt for Jack's alleged lack of manliness, coupled with her own barbed question regarding why men never dance with their wives, suggests that the truth was an unacknowledged undercurrent.

And then the phone call from Ennis sealed it all, made her (forced her) to finally put all the pieces together. She could no longer deny to her conscious mind that she had fallen in love and married a man who had loved another man.

[shortfiction]

Agreed.   She was never shown confronting him the way Alma did and clearly never sought a divorce.  She probably wanted to maintain her social standing and not be a divorcee, not have her husband known as gay, etc.

    When Ennis told her on the phone that they had herded sheep on BBM back in 1963, you can hear her choke back a little cry or whimper, because it's at that moment that she realizes why that mountain was Jack's favorite place and why he had wanted his ashes scattered there.

[ifyoucantfixit]

     I deliberately didn't read the other responses.  I didnt want to be influenced by the other opinions....
    
 I dont think she knew he was gay...I think she thought he might have been having an affair, and wondered why he didnt selem to
have the closeness with her that she wanted.  I think she truly loved him.  She withstood the taunts (the men calling him a pissant) and her fathers obvious disapproval.  She knew he had a good center, and was a caring husband and a father...Maybe she too was subject
to some of the strident things women back then were subjected to.....STICK IT OUT.......YOU ARE MARRIED MAKE THE BEST OF IT.....
 and my all time worse one to hear... YOU MADE YOUR BED, NOW YOU GOTTA LIE IN IT.  

      I dont see any way she had to discern that his affair may have been a gay one.  The movie didnt show it, and the book didnt say
so.  Therefor, I dont see it as true.

      I do think she figured it out however during that phone call with Ennis...she could barely hold herself back...you could just imagine her hanging up the phone, going to her room and just falling to pieces...Her beautifullly made up face and hair smeared and frazzled onto her pillow..  her gorgeous doe eyes pouring ..........

[huntinbuddy]

Well, like many here probably, I have seen the film more times than necessary, and in fact do have it memorized now.

I don't believe Lureen knew Jack was gay, when they first met.  Hell, as horny as she was, he could have probably told her there in the back seat
of that Thunderbird, "well, you are in a hurry, aren't you.....you know, I'm queer",

and Lureen would have still responding that she had to have the car home by midnight, while mounting him!

I think by the point in tiime, where Jack and Ennis are last on Brokeback together, and Ennis asks Jack, "What about you and Lureen?"

I can tell by the time that Jack takes to take another hit on the bottle and the expression on his face from the side, as
he says "Lureen's good at makin hard deals in the machinery business, but so far as our marriage goes, we could do it
over the phone."

That one line there by Jack tells me that his marriage has gone south.  What his sex life with Lureen was like after
fifteen years of marriage is anyones guess.  My guess is with periodic "fishing trips" with Ennis, and whatever Jack called them
trips to Mexico, I doubt there was much fire in the sexual department of their marriage.

If Lureen had an equally low sex drive, she probably didn't suspect anything.  If she expected sex in the manner that she
did back in the mid 60's, then yeah, I would think if Jack didn't put out for her, she would suspect something.

As someone else posted here, and this is just excellent acting and direction on Ang Lee's part.  When Lureen gets the
phone call from Ennis, and he tells her, "we herded sheep up on Brokeback one summer, back in 63", you can see the expression on
her face change, and she puts it all together in that one scene that this is the guy who has been getting Jack's
lovin all these years.

That's the way I interpreted it.

[moremojo]

...Her beautifullly made up face and hair smeared and frazzled onto her pillow..

Note too the little smudge of nail polish on Lureen's finger in the phone scene. I've taken that as a very subtle hint that she hasn't been entirely collected and focused (understandably so) for a while even before her epiphany from Ennis's single comment.

[Brown Eyes]

My opinion on this question changes from viewing to viewing (or depending on my mood).

More and more lately I'm guessing that she may have known deep down but was in denial about it or hadn't quite articulated it yet in her head until Ennis's phone call.  There seems to be no real doubt that Ennis's phone call is meant to be a big turning point moment when everything clicks for Lureen and she understands the full picture.

The one point prior to the phone call when it seems she might really know about Jack's sexuality is at the charity dance with LaShawn and Randall.  When she sarcastically questions why "husband's never seem to want to dance with their wives"... she seems to be heavily implying some kind of subtext.  Who knows if she really was wondering about Jack's sexuality with that statement (but again, I think even if she was, it wasn't articulated fully yet in her head).

Lureen was much more worldly than Alma and may have had a much easier time understanding Jack than Alma could with Ennis.  I still think that Lureen is actually tremendously kind to Ennis on the phone... especially letting him know that Jack said Brokeback was his favorite place (even after Lureen understands the full meaning of that word) and also urging Ennis to get in touch with Jack's parents.  She didn't need to do either of those things, and her quick decision to say both of those things I think shows something pretty deep about her character (despite all the outward superficiality with the cosmetics and hair dye, etc.).

[delalluvia]

No, she didn't.  She finally got the inkling when Ennis called, things started to slide into place for her, but before then?  No.  She knew their marriage was distant, but she didn't know why, she probably just assumed he was bored with her - hence the look on her face during the charity event when Jack was dancing with that Lashawn.

[SFEnnisSF]

I always thought she knew by the time of the phone call, because of the way she says "Jack kept his friends addresses in his head".  She says it real bitter too.  But now in reading this, I think she figures it all out during the phone call.  That expains her little sounds she makes and she almost starts to cry...

[Katie77]

Im like Atz....my opinion changes on this all the time.....

I think Laureen knew that she was always "second best".....and maybe never knew who she was second best to until the phone call from Ennis after Jack died..

If she had thought he loved someone else,  in those days and times, the thought that that would be a man, may not have ever entered her head, but when Ennis called her, it may have been a feeling of "so it was you, so it was a man Jack was in love with"......even then, I dont think she would have tagged him as "gay"...more likely, she came to the realization that she had been "second best" to a man....

They seem to have had a respectful marriage, and the sexual side of it, over 20yrs, or lack of it, may not have been a problem for Laureen...the fact that Jack had friends that she didnt know, and whose numbers he kept in his head, may have annoyed her, but I dont think she would have thought they were sexual friends.....

I dont think she thought he was gay....again in those days, "gay" would have meant that he had never been with a woman, and she knew that was not true....so even after Ennis' phone call i still dont think "gay" was the word she would have thought about the relationship that Jack and Ennis had.

[Marge_Innavera]

In the scene were Jack is looking for his parka and Lureen is asking him pointed questions about why 'your friend can't come to Texas," there's a pointed quality in her tone of voice -- like she's needling him about something. But I've never gotten the impression that she even suspects  he's gay at that point.  It looked more like she knows these 'fishing trips' are bogus, but that  (1) Ennis doesn't exist: Jack has a long-term girlfriend in another state; (2) Ennis does exist, and is an old buddy who can be counted on to vouch for Jack if Lureen starts investigating, or (3) Jack and his friend spend their "trips" gambling and whoring.  Actually, a gambling problem could explain a lot of Jack's behavior.

Even if their marriage is already starting to slide downhill, there are any number of reasons why that can and often does happen. IMO Lureen isn't sure about the reasons for the decline in their marriage but Ennis' phone call is what tells her the rest of the story.

[moremojo]

....so even after Ennis' phone call i still dont think "gay" was the word she would have thought about the relationship that Jack and Ennis had.

Just as Jack and Ennis probably never saw their relationship as "gay". Yet "gay" is undeniably what the rest of the society would have labelled it.

[brokeplex]

Did Lureen know that Jack was gay? Probably not at first, but over time.... yes she did. And, her father definitely did and disapproved of Jack. Look at the differences in the screenplay and the movie during the "Sit down you old sonuvabitch!" Thanksgiving dinner. Perhaps her father's disapproval of Jack is one of the reasons Lureen married Jack. In the movie, by the time we get to 1978 in the scene at the fundraiser for the Childress County Children's home, Lureen is clearly disappointed in her life. I think that she quietly accepted his "wanderings" as long as he didn't make a public spectacle of himself. Her tone when she was speaking with Ennis in 1983 after he learns of Jack's death shows that she had mentally compartmentalized Jack, and clearly he had not been the focus of her life for some time. On the other hand,for Alma, Ennis was the love of her life and she felt KEEN betrayal upon the understanding of her husband's affair with Jack. I don't think that Lureen ever felt for Jack what Alma felt for Ennis. So in Lureen, you didn't see the anger that was demonstrated in Alma....Lureen just had a sense that her marriage was probably a mistake and was dealing with it in the best way she could. I feel great sorrow for both women, especially Alma. The CLOSET has many victims, included in that number are spouses and children. Had Jack and Ennis felt free to live their lives together, two unhappy marriages could have been averted.

[Marge_Innavera]

Did Lureen know that Jack was gay? Probably not at first, but over time.... yes she did. And, her father definitely did and disapproved of Jack. Look at the differences in the screenplay and the movie during the "Sit down you old sonuvabitch!" Thanksgiving dinner.

But the father-in-law's hostility can also be explained by the fact that he "makes serious money", to quote Jack, and his daughter marries a rodeo cowboy with little education and from a dirt-poor background. And his snarky suggestions about Jack's masculinity (e.g., "boys should watch football") could as easily have been a reference to the fact that Jack has continued to work at the family business and not tried any kind of career on his own.  If the son-in-law had been from The Right Background, Newsome could have lived with that and regarded Jack as a protege but that wasn't the case. Moreover, the decor in the Twists' house suggests a nouveau riche family background, which would make the parents-in-law more sensitive about their daughter having married beneath her than if they'd been prosperous for several generations.

I feel great sorrow for both [Lureen and] Alma. The CLOSET has many victims, included in that number are spouses and children. Had Jack and Ennis felt free to live their lives together, two unhappy marriages could have been averted.

We're all in agreement on that aspect, for sure.

[moremojo]

We're all in agreement on that aspect, for sure.

Although, without his marriage to Alma, Ennis would never have had the two daughters who were so dear to his heart, and may even, by the film's end, have become his primary or sole reason for living.

[huntinbuddy]

(3) Jack and his friend spend their "trips" gambling and whoring.  Actually, a gambling problem could explain a lot of Jack's behavior.

Probably more whoring than gambling.  At least legal gambling.  What many don't know, at least with the present generation, is that here in the US,
gambling has only exploded in the past 20 years.

In 1931, Nevada was the first and only state to have legalized gambling.  Then came New Jersey in 1978, and now it seems nearly every
state has some form of it.  Even legal lotteries are fairly new.  New Hampshire had the first in 1964, followed by New York in 67, and then
New Jersey in 1971.  Just like casinos, it seems nearly every state now has some form of lottery games.

For what it's worth,

hb

[Shakesthecoffecan]

We're not given a lot of insite into what the wives were thinking, but certainly Alma more. Lureen in both the story and especially in the movie, seems to jsut be annoyed with Jack over the years and then in her final scene is confronted with the truth. This Ennis Del Mar, what ever she thought of him, is now a heartbroken voice on the other end of the line, and she finally "gets it".

It also leads into all other sort of ideas, like did she know and have him killed? Was he killed because he was gay and that was how she found out?

[Toast]

Did Lureen know that Jack was gay? Probably not at first, but over time.... yes she did. And, her father definitely did and disapproved of Jack. Look at the differences in the screenplay and the movie during the "Sit down you old sonuvabitch!" Thanksgiving dinner. Perhaps her father's disapproval of Jack is one of the reasons Lureen married Jack. In the movie, by the time we get to 1978 in the scene at the fundraiser for the Childress County Children's home, Lureen is clearly disappointed in her life. I think that she quietly accepted his "wanderings" as long as he didn't make a public spectacle of himself. Her tone when she was speaking with Ennis in 1983 after he learns of Jack's death shows that she had mentally compartmentalized Jack, and clearly he had not been the focus of her life for some time. On the other hand,for Alma, Ennis was the love of her life and she felt KEEN betrayal upon the understanding of her husband's affair with Jack. I don't think that Lureen ever felt for Jack what Alma felt for Ennis. So in Lureen, you didn't see the anger that was demonstrated in Alma....Lureen just had a sense that her marriage was probably a mistake and was dealing with it in the best way she could. I feel great sorrow for both women, especially Alma. The CLOSET has many victims, included in that number are spouses and children. Had Jack and Ennis felt free to live their lives together, two unhappy marriages could have been averted.

Total agreement, brokeplex.

I think Lureen put Jack between herself and her father for distance
and continued to stay with Jack as a kind of a business decision
Very unhappy girl   buried in the company stuff
Knowing that Jack came back all perky from his northern adventures.

[ifyoucantfixit]

     Not wanting to seem or be argumentative:  however, I dont see how you can place your own thoughts, on them.  You who think she knew he was gay, are yourself aware of it...Therefor you in my opinion are giving her your opinions.  The story is all we can go by..Even Anne Hathaways superb performance is an interpretation.  Between her and Ang Lee.  It was meant to slant your opinion.  To theirs...But the story is still ambigious...
     We will never know for sure...Its merely speculation....We can never say she did..Or did not!!

[moremojo]

To theirs...But the story is still ambigious...

Very true. And the original story is, on this point (along with many others), even more ambiguous than the film. In the story, it is possible that Lureen never realizes Jack was gay (unlikely, but possible). In the film, the close-up of Lureen's anguished face and wounded eyes leaves no doubt that, if she did not arrive at this conclusion earlier, by this point she cannot deny it.

[BBM-Cat]

leaves no doubt that, if she did not arrive at this conclusion earlier, by this point she cannot deny it.

Very well put - prior to that timepoint, if anything, Lureen was certainly aware of the widening rift between her and Jack, though unable to put her finger precisely on it until Ennis’ phone call, IMO. Notice all of her outward, cosmetic attempts to engage or ‘attract’ Jack back to the marriage. I speculate that she had a lot of negative self-thoughts in the early years of her marriage – such as, if she did more of “this”, or “that”, or appeared a certain way, Jack might “love” her more, etc. I imagine that was quite confusing for Lureen, perceiving herself as an educated, socially-accomplished, and attractive woman, whose affections and efforts were not equally reciprocated.

I also speculate that after her energies and understanding failed her, she resigned herself to her anger and resentment as reflected through her increased attempts to hurt Jack with sarcasm (thus making herself even less attractive); and avoiding her marriage by becoming a work-a-holic (making herself unavailable). Interesting, that her ways of coping pushed Jack away even further despite perhaps, longing for the opposite effect. Tragically, she did not understand how to repair the damage, and that it was not within her power to change things for the better.

[pettifogger]

I don't think Lureen had a clue in the early years of her marriage, even as late as the "why can't your buddy come here" scene I believe she was still in the dark.  She was unhappy, her marriage wasn't what she expected it to be but she had no clue why yet.  But by the time we see them on New Years Eve I think maybe she has begun to suspect, I though her comment about husbands never wanting to dance ( dance being a euphemism for something more) with there wives was a barb aimed straight at Jack.  I always wondered if she had discussed her suspicions with someone instead of Jack becoming careless with Randall and that this action is what brought about Jack's murder.  Either way I believe her long held suspicions were confirmed for her in the telephone conversation with Ennis, when he told here about herding sheep on Brokeback.  Suddenly everything made sense much like when Alma opened that door and was confronted with the embracing Ennis and Jack.

[Katie77]

There have been a lot of comparisons between Laureen and Alma and their respective marriages to Jack and Ennis.

Opposites certainly did attract with Jack and Ennis.....

Ennis was a bully to Alma sometimes, and I think she was scared of him and his violent temper...he was very controlling and I think was very selfish...His job came first, obviously his trips away must have stopped Alma ever getting away with him, even their sex life was a one sided affair with Ennis doing what satisfied him and yet it was something that Alma hated....

I think, once Alma saw Ennis and Jack kissing, after getting over being upset about it, she probably began to take some control herself over the marriage, and where she was heading and what she was going to do....she may not have even thought that Ennis was "gay", but she probably thought that whatever it was Jack had with Ennis, was far more nicer than what she had with Ennis....seeing them together, was probably the first and only time that she saw a vulnerable side to Ennis.....

Laureen on the other hand was the opposite...she was the controller right from the start, and Jack in his placid way allowed her and her family to control him....it didnt seem to worry him too much, it worked for them both....she probably wanted him to take control, as shown by her smile when he finally stood up to her father at thanksgiving...

But.....I think Laureen was probably annoyed that something or someone other than her, was also controlling a lot of the things Jack did, and she was right, because Jack also did let Ennis control what was going on with them.

Ennis was the controller and Jack was the controllee in both their marriages and their own relatonship, but as it turns out, no one seemed to be happy.

Maybe thats what the movie wanted to show, how these two people, opposite in so many ways could endure such a long relationship, could love one another against all the odds.....it also showed that they kept secrets from one another, just as they kept secrets from their wives.....their own relationship was in some ways parallel to their marriages.

It seems like the whole 20yrs was a mess of control, of lies, of deception, selfishness and un answered questons....yet somewhere in amongst all that, there was still something pretty special going on......come to think of it....it was that, that controlled everything, right from the very start, and once again Ennis controlled it, and Jack let it control him.....

[LauraGigs]

For me, the biggest single tipoff is the Childress Benefit Dance scene.  Lureen is so bored and apathetic there.  Nothing in the broad conversation interests her... until LaShaun brings up husbands not wanting to dance with their wives.  Suddenly Lureen is interested — interested enough not only to second LaShaun's opinion, but to ask Jack "Why?" and nudge him. 

If she'd said, "husbands never wanna dance with their wives" and sighed resignedly or scanned the room hungrily, we might come to different conclusions. But instead she asks, "Why do you think that is, Jack??" prodding him for an answer.  She's clearly mystified with it all.

BBM-Cat's point about her constant fussing with her appearance is a good one.  I agree that Lureen puts it together in the phone conversation.

(Lureen is more worldly than Alma, but not so much that we can project our own gay-sensitive, 21st-century worldview onto her. She grew up in the 50s and 60s in the rural Southwest, probably with Ladies' Home Journal and similar stuff as her window to the world. For her (and most people nowadays even), the first night in the car would be irrevokable 'proof' he wasn't gay.)

[delalluvia]

For me, the biggest single tipoff is the Childress Benefit Dance scene.  Lureen is so bored and apathetic there.  Nothing in the broad conversation interests her... until LaShaun brings up husbands not wanting to dance with their wives.  Suddenly Lureen is interested — interested enough not only to second LaShaun's opinion, but to ask Jack "Why?" and nudge him. 

If she'd said, "husbands never wanna dance with their wives" and sighed resignedly or scanned the room hungrily, we might come to different conclusions. But instead she asks, "Why do you think that is, Jack??" prodding him for an answer.  She's clearly mystified with it all.

BBM-Cat's point about her constant fussing with her appearance is a good one.  I agree that Lureen puts it together in the phone conversation.

Actually, I thought she sounded very sarcastic "Men don't never seem to want to dance with their wives..."  In response to LaShawn's complaint.  She nudges Jack, irony dripping from her voice, "Why do you suppose that is?"

Jack shrugs his answer and then instantly asks LaShawn for a dance.  Obviously, despite all Lureen's attempts to doll up and change her appearance over the years, she's not having much luck attracting her husband.  Jack, sensing trouble, throws her off track - or is continuing the illusion of possible boredom with her - by asking another woman to dance suggesting to Lureen that he doesn't mind "dancing" with other women.

[Noviani]

Hi, i don't read all other comments.

i think i took very long for Lureen to realize that Jack was gay. i remember she was complaining about why not Jack's fishing buddy who drive down to meet him while Jack has to drive up to the mountain 4 times a year. and i keep laughing everytime Jack bitching back about the big horn is not in Texas or something..

a woman who knew wouldn't express her complain is such attitude.

so it must be some somewhere between that time and the second when Ennis mentioned about herding sheep back in 1963. THAT was when the dear undeniable spat on her face.