Author Topic: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori  (Read 102296 times)

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #320 on: July 16, 2009, 07:23:08 pm »
Well, they are by the same author and as such IMO that is an obvious reason for comparison.

It's like considering which novel you like better by any of your well-liked authors, and why. Of course it's subjective but it's also fully possible to elaborate on specific matters that led to the overall view. I would think most people do that all the time. I certainly do - and consider it entirely relevant.

The same goes for comparing one author's fic or novel to another's, btw.

By and large I don't think it's very constructive to tell other fic readers how they should and should not go about evaluating and expressing their views on fics.






Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,586
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #321 on: July 16, 2009, 07:46:42 pm »
Like Mikaela said, Zero at the Bone and HI are written by the same author, so itīs not very far-fetched to compare the two.Ļ




And comparing two fics is just like when you say "I liked this movie better than the other one".



Btw. Another thing I remember thinking while re-reading HI is that it differs very much in style from ZatB. If I didnīt know it beforehand, I donīt think Iīd have ever guessed that they were written by the same author. Itīs interesting to see how an authors style change over time.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #322 on: July 16, 2009, 07:55:37 pm »
I also think Zero is more tightly plotted and structured and that makes for a better story.

As far as I recall, HI was being developed while it was written - it meanders from one dramatic incident to the next, which is then resolved before another looms on the horizon - and Lori was entirely open at the time about creating it as she went along. (For instance, when Lizzie's crush on Jack was introduced, I believe readers' input contributed to that storyline being nipped in the bud without taking a more prominent place or evolving further than it did.)

Zero on the other hand has a clear story arch  - in one of the very first chapters it has Jack thinking rhetorically about what might happen down the line; "a car chase, or a showdown in a warehouse?" ( which of course is a foreshadowing of what will actually happen down the line, and which at the same time shows that main parts of the story arc were in place early on.)

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,586
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #323 on: July 16, 2009, 08:09:21 pm »
I also think Zero is more tightly plotted and structured and that makes for a better story.

As far as I recall, HI was being developed while it was written - it meanders from one dramatic incident to the next, which is then resolved before another looms on the horizon - and Lori was entirely open at the time about creating it as she went along. (For instance, when Lizzie's crush on Jack was introduced, I believe readers' input contributed to that storyline being nipped in the bud without taking a more prominent place or evolving further than it did.)

Zero on the other hand has a clear story arch  - in one of the very first chapters it has Jack thinking rhetorically about what might happen down the line; "a car chase, or a showdown in a warehouse?" ( which of course is a foreshadowing of what will actually happen down the line, and which at the same time shows that main parts of the story arc were in place early on.)
Yes, HI lacked a plot in the common sense of the word. It has no clear begining, middle or ending. I think the point was that the story was supposed to emulate life in that way. Our lives consists of a string of events that most often arenīt connected. Itīs pretty clever given the subject of the story.

I think the reason I prefer ZatB to Hi, is that itīs darker, more complex and Doctor Jack and Hitman Ennis are closer to canon.

Offline Mikaela

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,228
  • Unsaid... and now unsayable
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #324 on: July 16, 2009, 08:39:27 pm »
Yes, HI lacked a plot in the common sense of the word. It has no clear begining, middle or ending. I think the point was that the story was supposed to emulate life in that way. Our lives consists of a string of events that most often arenīt connected.

Sure. But strictly IMO it makes for less compelling reading than the concept at first would indicate. It risks becoming too like one of those TV series that continues on and has to come up with new big unexpected twists and turns and cliffhangers as long as the ratings are sufficient.

I do think I reacted far more to the continuous big-time drama (the way I perceived it) than the meandering nature of the tale, actually. I though the dramatic events in HI were entirely unlikely to all befall one couple in a short period of time. While in TCJ things seemed to calm down to more closely emulate RL as far as the content of actual plot events and -development went. Both the daughter-turned-religious-zealot and the aging parents needing help seemed to be realistic and more low-key and to initially allow for that "similar to RL" approach (and depiction of related relationship closeness and -strains for J&E). That worked better IMO.

 
Quote
I think the reason I prefer ZatB to Hi, is that itīs darker, more complex and Doctor Jack and Hitman Ennis are closer to canon.

It's actually strange to note that the AU!AU characters seem closer to canon than the canon!AU characters.  :)  My main objection to HI has always been the characterization of Ennis, who I couldn't recognize as canon Ennis at all, though that was supposed to be his starting point.

The depiction of the development of the ZatB relationship from the first meeting, the slow evolvement of D from completely closed-down to a loving partner in an openly gay relationship, the sheer level of angst throughout, the excitement fit to give a poor reader heart attacks, the focus on J&E with less interference from OCs, .... yeah, all the parts of ZatB just clik together into one whole that is larger than the sum of those parts and just appeal to me all the way.  :) As for the frequent and highly dramatic events in ZatB, they follow naturally from the very dramatic starting point and the crime/mob hit context of the tale - these two men are not exactly living ordinary everyday lives.  :o

retropian

  • Guest
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #325 on: July 17, 2009, 02:32:08 am »
Sure. But strictly IMO it makes for less compelling reading than the concept at first would indicate. It risks becoming too like one of those TV series that continues on and has to come up with new big unexpected twists and turns and cliffhangers as long as the ratings are sufficient.

I do think I reacted far more to the continuous big-time drama (the way I perceived it) than the meandering nature of the tale, actually. I though the dramatic events in HI were entirely unlikely to all befall one couple in a short period of time. While in TCJ things seemed to calm down to more closely emulate RL as far as the content of actual plot events and -development went. Both the daughter-turned-religious-zealot and the aging parents needing help seemed to be realistic and more low-key and to initially allow for that "similar to RL" approach (and depiction of related relationship closeness and -strains for J&E). That worked better IMO.

 
It's actually strange to note that the AU!AU characters seem closer to canon than the canon!AU characters.  :)  My main objection to HI has always been the characterization of Ennis, who I couldn't recognize as canon Ennis at all, though that was supposed to be his starting point.

The depiction of the development of the ZatB relationship from the first meeting, the slow evolvement of D from completely closed-down to a loving partner in an openly gay relationship, the sheer level of angst throughout, the excitement fit to give a poor reader heart attacks, the focus on J&E with less interference from OCs, .... yeah, all the parts of ZatB just clik together into one whole that is larger than the sum of those parts and just appeal to me all the way.  :) As for the frequent and highly dramatic events in ZatB, they follow naturally from the very dramatic starting point and the crime/mob hit context of the tale - these two men are not exactly living ordinary everyday lives.  :o

I pretty much agree with you here. I was glad to read a reply Lori had posted to some of the comments on LJ that HI didnt have a tradition story line or arc, because I too had begun to wonder where it was leading. HI and TCJ are kind of soap opera-ish in that one dramatic crisis follows on the heals of another without any letup. That's not a criticism, just a comment. I enjoyed the stories very much. For me, the important developement in the stories is not all the drama but the deepening love and connection between J&E that the drama precipitates. As far as the charcterizations of Jack and Ennis being close to cannon, well any more I just view any fanfiction Jack and Ennis and being inspired by the original characters. They need only resemble cannon J&E, they don't have to be dead on representations. Usually Ennis is the more private or closeted or repressed one and Jack is more open, self-accepting and assetive of his quest for the sweet life. This creates a tension and dynamic between the two; Jack always pulling and proding a reluctant, but loving Ennis with him.

Zero, is just freakin awesome! I woud love to see it as a movie.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,586
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #326 on: July 17, 2009, 09:17:09 am »


 
It's actually strange to note that the AU!AU characters seem closer to canon than the canon!AU characters.  :) 


You got a good point there. Genre really does not indicate whether the characterization is canon or not, but is more of an indicator of time, place and sometimes plot.

Offline Monika

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,586
  • We are all the same. Women, men, gay, straight
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #327 on: July 17, 2009, 09:29:02 am »
Sure. But strictly IMO it makes for less compelling reading than the concept at first would indicate. It risks becoming too like one of those TV series that continues on and has to come up with new big unexpected twists and turns and cliffhangers as long as the ratings are sufficient.

I think it has to do with what we are used to reading/watching. We expect a clear beginning, a middle and and ending because thatīs what weīre used to. Itīs the classic structure of a drama. HI on the contrary is narrated episodically.


another story that has a similar structure as HI, is Maggieīs story "the Del Mar Painting".

Offline SFEnnisSF

  • BBM Radio Program Director
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,550
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #328 on: July 17, 2009, 09:33:44 am »
I guess one of the things I like about HI/TCJ is that it didn't have the "structured story".  It was just them living as they are and dealing with life's obstacles that are thrown their way.  Just living life as they are and taking it as it comes and learning as they go.  I very much enjoyed that.

I admit I'm not a fan of AUAU.  But heck, change my mind...

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,375
Re: Human Interest and Two Crows Joy by MadLori
« Reply #329 on: July 17, 2009, 10:35:03 am »

Heya,
I'm still enjoying my re-reading project for HI.  It's interesting that the discussion of how "different" Ennis is in HI compared to canon or other fic... At one point pretty early on, there's an author's note that this Ennis is deliberately different.  (Paraphrasing here)  In this story the idea is that this is an Ennis that never existed and is an Ennis who was/is capable of embracing a relationship and a life with Jack... so he is fundamentally different. 

And, it makes sense to me too... since we meet J and E at the beginning of HI at a point when they'd already been living together for several years.  So, that kind of major change in lifestyle would have certainly had an impact on Ennis's expressiveness, talkativeness, happiness, etc... so that he would seem different.

Also, on th subject of Lizzie being something of a stand in for the reader... it occurs to me that she provides some "confessional" opportunities for J and E too.  They almost immediately seem to really enjoy having someone to confide in and tell their story to.  It's interesting how much Ennis wants to tell her, and so quickly.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie