Author Topic: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?  (Read 33405 times)

Offline brokeplex

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When I first saw Brokeback Mountain the movie, I was immediately pleased with the opening titles and I was delighted that Heath and Jake were kind to my eyes. But Ang Lee didn't hook me into the movie until Randy Quaid drove up as Joe Aguirre. When Joe walked by Ennis and gave him a look that said "you are just dirt from the wrong side of town", I knew that Ang Lee had a winner. He really captured the type of character in Aguirre that I have seen in real life from time to time.

So, have any of you had Joe Aguirre's in your lives? And what do you think of Randy Quaid's performance?

Offline Artiste

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Great questions brokeplex!!

That actor plays greatly his part, it seems to me! Am glad too that he demanded more $ for his role!!

There are many such Aquirres in my life! I must find them... and think more about some, in order to tell you about that!! Are they gay, or anti-gay or something else???

Hugs!


Offline Brown Eyes

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When I first saw Brokeback Mountain the movie, I was immediately pleased with the opening titles and I was delighted that Heath and Jake were kind to my eyes. But Ang Lee didn't hook me into the movie until Randy Quaid drove up as Joe Aguirre. When Joe walked by Ennis and gave him a look that said "you are just dirt from the wrong side of town", I knew that Ang Lee had a winner. He really captured the type of character in Aguirre that I have seen in real life from time to time.

So, have any of you had Joe Aguirre's in your lives? And what do you think of Randy Quaid's performance?


Hey brokeplex!  This is a great topic.  I **love** the opening 10 minutes or so of the film.  It's in fact one of my favorite cinematic experiences.  I'll disagree with you slightly in that I think the silent interaction between Jack and Ennis is so enigmatic and fascinating... that it immediately drew me into the film.  This is a personal reaction of course, and I can imagine it would be different for different viewers.  The opening sequence is so spare and subtle (highlighted by the lack of dialogue) that it forces me to really contemplate small details.

Like the tire that spins-out on Jack's tire when he arrives.  In the quietness of the opening... this tire almost becomes a climactic moment of action.  The truck almost seems to have a personality... which, of course interacts with Jack's own personality (even before we know anything about Jack, we're given a clue that he might be high-spirited).

And, decisions about framing specific shots seem to take on heightened meaning... Like why is there such a point made to juxtapose Jack's profile with a square patch of waving, green grass in the background?  I think this is immensely important to the very last shot in the film....

The silent beginning is almost like poetry to me... completely enigmatic because with the silences no real clear-cut answers can be provided.

And Ennis's body language is it's own huge topic here.

Etc.

But, you're absolutely right to note that Aguirre really does sort of herald the beginning of the action in a certain way.

I think Randy Quaid did a brilliant job depicting a sour, grumpy, boss-man.  I also quite like that so much of Aguirre's dialogue is lifted directly out of Proulx's writing.  I think it's good to begin the dialogue of the film with a fairly direct homage to Proulx.  I think Aguirre is really a hugely symbolic figure.

In this early, trailer scene it's Aguirre who begins the time line by tossing Ennis the watch (which ends with "never enough time" and the presumably-stopped clock in Jack's boyhood bedroom in Lightning Flat).  And, I know that there are those out there who see Aguirre's bizarre phone call conversation as being a kind of anti-marriage rite (the "no, no, no") while Ennis and Jack stand before him like a doomed couple.  I can't take credit for that observation... I know I've read it around here somewhere. 

And, of course, in this opening sequence, Aguirre's ever-important binoculars are hidden away in the case that hangs behind his head.  So, Ennis never gets a glimpse of Aguirre's potential power of observation.  Jack eventually learns exactly how much Aguirre has been able to see (with the "Uncle Harold" conversation, which seems to give Jack a clue about this... since Aguirre brings his binoculars with him) and later with the "stemming the rose" visit where Aguirre's binoculars are again hanging behind his head in the trailer, but this time they're completely visible and exposed to Jack. 

Maybe, given Ennis's fears, it's crucial that Ennis never sees these binoculars for the relationship with Jack to progress or even happen at all.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

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Hey brokeplex!  This is a great topic.  I **love** the opening 10 minutes or so of the film.  It's in fact one of my favorite cinematic experiences.  I'll disagree with you slightly in that I think the silent interaction between Jack and Ennis is so enigmatic and fascinating... that it immediately drew me into the film.  This is a personal reaction of course, and I can imagine it would be different for different viewers.  The opening sequence is so spare and subtle (highlighted by the lack of dialogue) that it forces me to really contemplate small details.

Like the tire that spins-out on Jack's tire when he arrives.  In the quietness of the opening... this tire almost becomes a climactic moment of action.  The truck almost seems to have a personality... which, of course interacts with Jack's own personality (even before we know anything about Jack, we're given a clue that he might be high-spirited).

And, decisions about framing specific shots seem to take on heightened meaning... Like why is there such a point made to juxtapose Jack's profile with a square patch of waving, green grass in the background?  I think this is immensely important to the very last shot in the film....

The silent beginning is almost like poetry to me... completely enigmatic because with the silences no real clear-cut answers can be provided.

And Ennis's body language is it's own huge topic here.

Etc.

But, you're absolutely right to note that Aguirre really does sort of herald the beginning of the action in a certain way.

I think Randy Quaid did a brilliant job depicting a sour, grumpy, boss-man.  I also quite like that so much of Aguirre's dialogue is lifted directly out of Proulx's writing.  I think it's good to begin the dialogue of the film with a fairly direct homage to Proulx.  I think Aguirre is really a hugely symbolic figure.

In this early, trailer scene it's Aguirre who begins the time line by tossing Ennis the watch (which ends with "never enough time" and the presumably-stopped clock in Jack's boyhood bedroom in Lightning Flat).  And, I know that there are those out there who see Aguirre's bizarre phone call conversation as being a kind of anti-marriage rite (the "no, no, no") while Ennis and Jack stand before him like a doomed couple.  I can't take credit for that observation... I know I've read it around here somewhere. 

And, of course, in this opening sequence, Aguirre's ever-important binoculars are hidden away in the case that hangs behind his head.  So, Ennis never gets a glimpse of Aguirre's potential power of observation.  Jack eventually learns exactly how much Aguirre has been able to see (with the "Uncle Harold" conversation, which seems to give Jack a clue about this... since Aguirre brings his binoculars with him) and later with the "stemming the rose" visit where Aguirre's binoculars are again hanging behind his head in the trailer, but this time they're completely visible and exposed to Jack. 

Maybe, given Ennis's fears, it's crucial that Ennis never sees these binoculars for the relationship with Jack to progress or even happen at all.




I love your observations, you have noticed some subtle details that totally went over my head. I'm definitely saving your post for reference when I fire up the movie for the  x + nth time.........

Offline brokeplex

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He is that man that wants so bad to be the bigshot....but never is satisfied. He takes his pleasure from holding himself as being superior. That is why he has to be so aggressive. A man that is truly happy in himself and secure in his OWN manhood doesn't have to bluster and curse. He is a bully pure and simple. An old bully that is refusing to admit to himself that he is getting old and fading and feels dissatisfied with life in general.

I think Randy Quaid did a real good job portraying him although he is my least (ok second to least) favorite character in the movie.

and I think we have ALL run into that person...we have one or two here at Bettermost! LOL!!

do you think he is a good boss? do you think that he treated Ennis and Jack fairly within the context of the times in which they liived?

Offline Brown Eyes

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I love your observations, you have noticed some subtle details that totally went over my head. I'm definitely saving your post for reference when I fire up the movie for the  x + nth time.........

Thanks Bud! :-*


And, about Aguirre being a reasonable boss or not...  I think his biggest problem at the beginning of the film is that he's asking Jack and Ennis to do something that's blatantly against the Forest Service's policy.  It's really not a very fair thing for a boss to ask of employees.  Of course, he's a big jerk too, which does not help in any assessment of Aguirre as a "good" or "fair" boss.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex!

To you, why did Acquirre hire again Jack?

There was a terrible lost the year before! So why hire Jack a second time?

This seems fishy??

Hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Artiste, that's a good question about why Aguirre would hire Jack again.

Maybe Aguirre was fair enough, after all, to realize that Jack really couldn't control the weather which killed the sheep.  Or maybe Aguirre was desperate for help during the summer of '63.

The brief references to Jack's earlier summer on Brokeback definitely lead to some mysteries.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Aguirre could have easily got rid of Jack the first time, and not hire him again!

So why? employ Jack a second time?

Hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Hi Artiste,

It's a good question.  Why do you think he hired him again?
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Kd5000

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2007, 12:00:20 am »
My opinion of Aguirre has changed recently.  It seems that when Jack was exiting the trailer after his last encounter with Aguirre, a scene was cut which showed two mechanics who  stare accusingly at Jack.  It seems Aguirre had spilled the beans to a few of the locals about what he had witnessed.  Conjecture is that after Jack saw their reaction, he was apt to prove his heterosexuality and hooked up with Lureen.

Darn, I guess we will never get to see those deleted scenes. My source was READING BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2007, 12:41:33 am »
My opinion of Aguirre has changed recently.  It seems that when Jack was exiting the trailer after his last encounter with Aguirre, a scene was cut which showed two mechanics who  stare accusingly at Jack.  It seems Aguirre had spilled the beans to a few of the locals about what he had witnessed.  Conjecture is that after Jack saw their reaction, he was apt to prove his heterosexuality and hooked up with Lureen.

Darn, I guess we will never get to see those deleted scenes. My source was READING BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN.

that is fascinating, I would like to have seen that.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2007, 01:38:14 am »
Was Aguirre really such a bad boss? I'm not so sure. Lets look at what actually happened from the standpoint of a man who has invested money and been charged with managing a sheep operation and needs to make a profit for himself and his other investors.

Yes, he was using the allotments in a fashion that the Forest Service did not allow. But, so was every other user of the allotments. This type of grazing on the Forest Service lands is common in the west and most ranchers would actually build temporary cabins in the allotments for their herders. Aguirre told then to "build no fire, leave no sign", he is trying to work within the system. The Forest service routinely looked the other way at much more egregious violations than Aguirre's.

Jack and Ennis did not do what Aguirre needed. First they changed roles without Aguirre's permission, that was of course to the good as Ennis was a good sheep herder and Jack was not. But still Aguirre could not have been pleased at first to see Jack in camp. Then there were the losses to the herd after shovedown. In order to avoid that, Aguirre hired two of them instead of one. Aguire had to have been angry at his losses.

Then there was Jack's poor performance last year, yet Aguirre gave him another chance.

I just want to play devils advocate and have y'all look at this from Aguirre's point of view.  I really loved the way Randy Quaid played that role!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2007, 01:48:05 am »
Was Aguirre really such a bad boss? I'm not so sure. Lets look at what actually happened from the standpoint of a man who has invested money and been charged with managing a sheep operation and needs to make a profit for himself and his other investors.

Yes, he was using the allotments in a fashion that the Forest Service did not allow. But, so was every other user of the allotments. This type of grazing on the Forest Service lands is common in the west and most ranchers would actually build temporary cabins in the allotments for their herders. Aguirre told then to "build no fire, leave no sign", he is trying to work within the system. The Forest service routinely looked the other way at much more egregious violations than Aguirre's.

Jack and Ennis did not do what Aguirre needed. First they changed roles without Aguirre's permission, that was of course to the good as Ennis was a good sheep herder and Jack was not. But still Aguirre could not have been pleased at first to see Jack in camp. Then there were the losses to the herd after shovedown. In order to avoid that, Aguirre hired two of them instead of one. Aguire had to have been angry at his losses.

Then there was Jack's poor performance last year, yet Aguirre gave him another chance.

I just want to play devils advocate and have y'all look at this from Aguirre's point of view.  I really loved the way Randy Quaid played that role!


Do we really think that Jack's a bad sheep herder?  I don't really know if that's the case.  Maybe he really is at least reasonably good at herding and that's the reason that Aguirre re-hired him. 


The loss of sheep due to the weather really wasn't the result of the skill of the herder (Jack or otherwise).  And, Ennis is seen at least once asking Jack what to do in terms of herding... When the sheep get mixed up he says "what are we supposed to do now?"  And, I think he may genuinely need Jack's advice about unmixing sheep, finding the lead-sheep, etc.  I wonder if Ennis and Jack are both equally good as herders but good at different aspects of herding.  We always see Jack leading the herd when they're going up the mountain and when they're moving the flock.  And, of course, Ennis lumbers along at the rear with all the supplies (Jack being in the lead of course has lots of other connotations in the story... and begins with their walk to the bar at the beginning). 

But, you're right that Ennis and Jack didn't end up doing their jobs to the best of either of their abilities (I mean a sheep is killed on Ennis's watch)... but of course this is mainly because they're very distracted.
:)


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2007, 07:46:49 pm »
Thanks all!!

I am still puzzled as to why Acquire did hire Jack a second time!!

Why??
There might be one reason, but I do not dare mention it, right now.

Hugs!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2007, 08:26:39 pm »
In addition to all the other good reasons that were mentioned here, I think Jack and Ennis were the only two people who applied for the job. The other young men around wouldn't have been interested in that job when there was roughnecking to do.

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2007, 09:48:31 pm »

Do we really think that Jack's a bad sheep herder?  I don't really know if that's the case.  Maybe he really is at least reasonably good at herding and that's the reason that Aguirre re-hired him. 


The loss of sheep due to the weather really wasn't the result of the skill of the herder (Jack or otherwise).  And, Ennis is seen at least once asking Jack what to do in terms of herding... When the sheep get mixed up he says "what are we supposed to do now?"  And, I think he may genuinely need Jack's advice about unmixing sheep, finding the lead-sheep, etc.  I wonder if Ennis and Jack are both equally good as herders but good at different aspects of herding.  We always see Jack leading the herd when they're going up the mountain and when they're moving the flock.  And, of course, Ennis lumbers along at the rear with all the supplies (Jack being in the lead of course has lots of other connotations in the story... and begins with their walk to the bar at the beginning). 

But, you're right that Ennis and Jack didn't end up doing their jobs to the best of either of their abilities (I mean a sheep is killed on Ennis's watch)... but of course this is mainly because they're very distracted.
:)



Those are good questions and observations. I think that Jack had all of the skills and experiences to be an excellent herder or ranch hand. He just didn't have the motivation. He preferred to complain, rather than to excel. Jack wanted to be rodeoing somewhere else rather than tending to the sheep or the camp. This is what made him a marginal employee. Ennis took to the herder job like a natural, he was motivated and had a good attitude. The sheep would never have been scattered or killed on Ennis's watch had he not been distracted. But then there would be no story without the Twist distraction.

Earlier it was asked why would Aguirre give Jack a second chance? I suspect that Jack could talk a good game with Aguirre and Aguirre needed him. That type of skilled labor was perhaps in short supply in 1963. I think that Aguire had his faults, how can I defend what clearly is a homophobic reaction to Twist? But, I think that there is more to the story than just that homophobia. Aguirre is very disappointed in Jack, he expected more from him. Aguirre saddles up his horse, rides up the moutain to check on the boys and what does he see? Well, he doesnt see Jack up on the mountain tending to the herd, he sees him "rolling in the dust" with Ennis while the dogs babysat the sheep. I'm not so sure that I would have been as verbally patient with Jack. I'm pretty sure I would have asked him some blunt questions about why did they trade places and why were the two of them taking the time to 'stem the rose' instead of tending to the business of the sheep. I also remember that after shovedown, Aguirre dresses them down, but he did pay them even though there were unacceptable losses. I personally might have handled the matter somewhat differently.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2007, 09:59:34 pm »
Heya,

I do think you're right that when you look at the situation objectively (without our Brokie-instilled love of both Jack and Ennis, etc.) from Aguirre's point of view neither Jack nor Ennis are doing their job very well during the summer of '63 and they both disobey in their decision to switch roles.  So, I don't really fault Aguirre for anger, etc. over that aspect of things.

I still do fault Aguirre over his homophobia (of course) and for his insistence that they do something that's against Forest Service rules to begin with.  I don't know all the nuances of that type of work and the culture of sheep herding, or ranching or any of those things.  But, as a general rule, if I as an employee, had a boss who asked me to do something that could get us (or me) in trouble, I would be really angry and really question the ethics of the boss.



So, I have a new, unanswerable question (though fun for speculation!) about Aguirre... who do we think he's talking to on the phone at the beginning (the "no, no, no" conversation)?

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2007, 10:10:32 pm »
On the Aguirre's misuse of the allotments in the Forest Service lands. My take on that is based on conversations with some ranchers who have used allotments going way back into the 1960's, and reading a few histories of Federal Land usage.

Until the 1990's, the rules the Forest Service imposed on ranchers using the allotments were enforced in a spotty fashion to put it mildly. Aguirre's violations were commonplace and mild compared to what usually went on in most circumstances. Many ranchers and historians of the use of Federal Lands out West tell tales of temporary cabin structures being built in the camping areas, fires being used in the grazing areas, and vehicles and helicopters used in areas in which they were forbidden. I think that Jack resented Aguirres rules not out of a sense of morality at the violation of Federal laws, but because Aguirre made the job more inconvenient for him than he had anticipated. Ennis on the other hand wanted to get the job done. Ennis is the type of person that I would want to hire.

Sure I agree with you on Aguirre's homophobic reaction, but would it have been any different with other straight men of the period,locality and occupation? Actually, Aguirre is rather controlled. As a Gay man, I would have been pluperfectly pissed off at Jack. But then I would have set different working conditions right from the start. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2007, 10:52:01 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say: As a Gay man, I would have been pluperfectly pissed off at Jack.
...

Since I am perplexed by your sentence, please explain further? Is it that you would like to be in Jack's shoes,
being him in the movie??
...

You say also: But then I would have set different working conditions right from the start. 
...

Which ones may I ask?
...

And I am asking or stating: Is Aquirre really anti-gay??

Hugs!


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2007, 01:38:39 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say: As a Gay man, I would have been pluperfectly pissed off at Jack.
...

Since I am perplexed by your sentence, please explain further? Is it that you would like to be in Jack's shoes,
being him in the movie??
...

You say also: But then I would have set different working conditions right from the start. 
...

Which ones may I ask?
...

And I am asking or stating: Is Aquirre really anti-gay??

Hugs!



Artiste, if I were the owner of the sheep operation I would have been pissed off at Jack whether I was gay or not because he was not doing what I told him he needed to do in order to secure an adequate return on my investment. It is clear in the movie that Aguirre is repelled when he sees the boys "lusting in the dust". This is evidence that like most other straight men of the period, he would be by today's standards homophobic. What I was trying to point out in the above post is that Aguirre had other reasons as well to dislike Jack. I would have also been displeased with Jack even if I didn't care if he and Ennis had "nookies" with each other. But unlike Aguirre I would not have been shy about chewing him out for his negligence right then and there.

Different working conditions :
1)  I would have set a different base pay scale for the herder and the camp tender. I would have paid the herder more money because the herder has more direct control over my substantial investment in the sheep.

2) I would have offered incentives in the form of bonuses for the herder for a return of higher numbers of sheep after shovedown. If the numbers of sheep who survived the summer fell below an acceptable level I would have forced penalties in the form of deductions from the herders pay. All on a graduated scale, based on what returns the sheep operation needed to please the investors. Both boys would understand that the care and feeding of the horses and mules was their responsibility and failure to do so would result in pay deductions.   

3) I would have made certain that the boys had good up to date equipment and plentiful free food, the whiskey ration I would cut back. But I would give them lanterns, and transistor radios (1963 technology), and reading materials. (in Ennis's case that would be ranch equipment catalogs)

4) I would have made certain that the boys knew that their job was on an indeterminate timeline. If it turned cold early in Aug, they would know I would want them to start shovedown.

5) A surrogate or myself would have made more frequent inspections, including going up to the grazing area to work along the herder at least once per month.

Is Aguirre anti-gay? By todays standards of course he is homophobic. He wouldn't have even used the term gay to describe Jack and Ennis's actions, he just would have considered them to be "perverted".

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2007, 06:21:34 pm »
Thanks very much brokeplex!

May I ask you to become my business manager?? As your answers about bussiness show that you are such! It is delightful to read them! Am very, very pleased.

But did you ever cinsider that Acquirre is not anti-gay?

Anxious to see about that... if you care to reply. Other can too!!

Hugs!!
N.B. Be assured that I will re-read often your reply. And will answer you many times there too, but please consider my question I pose above first.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2007, 12:29:45 am »
Artiste, thank you for your offer for me to become your business manager.

I must decline your generous offer. I must tell you that as of 3 weeks from now, I will be officially retired.

After that I can look forward to a quiet existence, rocking in my rocking chair, watching the birds in the bird bath, and listening intently to Rush Limbaugh like all of the rest of America's "displaced old white men".

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2007, 01:17:41 am »


I guarantee you we would violate the law....common sense and compassion has to prevail. To leave a herd of sheep alone on the mountain would be a cruel thing. The lawmakers in Washington didn't know anything about life out there.



Exactly, the bureaucrats in Washington did not then and probably now still do not understand the challenges faced in rural areas. That is why local Forest Service officials looked the other way for so long at the "violations" by ranchers who use the allotments. In their own ways Ennis and Jack had to also understand this, they were both raised on ranches in the Rockies.

By the way Injest, sorry about the horse. D.L. teared up when I told him about your horse. He loves his horses. I got him a bumper sticker for his truck, it reads:

"No money held in truck, all my money goes to feeding the horses."

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2007, 01:25:16 am »
He has two at present. He is constrained by lack of space at his place. But, that is not bad for a 26 year old man who has been in business of himself for only 5 years. Everybody has a hobby, and while he was a Texas A&M he took up riding, caring and feeding of these wonderful creatures.

I will stick to my two cats, and my rocking chair....and my AM radio so I can listen to Rush......... How about them Cowboys today ? See Injest they aren't choking!!!!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2007, 07:21:05 pm »
Brokeplex, what is an: Texas A&M ?

May I ask!
...............................................................

Injest, I love horses too! Some still have some here nearby. They are lucky to have a horse as a friend!
.....................................................

That makes me think did Aguirre have those horses? He was the owner?

Hugs! Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2007, 11:36:06 am »
Brokeplex, what is an: Texas A&M ?

May I ask!
...............................................................

Injest, I love horses too! Some still have some here nearby. They are lucky to have a horse as a friend!
.....................................................

That makes me think did Aguirre have those horses? He was the owner?

Hugs! Hugs!

A university here in Texas that somehow has come to the unlikely opinion that it is a good as the University of Texas. Aggies are in denial.........

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2007, 05:46:04 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

What is: Aggies are in denial.........?? I am lost here. Please explain or detail.
..............................

Since I think that Aquirre liked Jack ( as shown in the movie scenes), I ask you if he could be amiable because he knew Jack's parents?  Or is it something else, as in more deeper?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2007, 12:55:16 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

What is: Aggies are in denial.........?? I am lost here. Please explain or detail.
..............................

Since I think that Aquirre liked Jack ( as shown in the movie scenes), I ask you if he could be amiable because he knew Jack's parents?  Or is it something else, as in more deeper?

Hugs!

why do you believe that Aguirre liked Jack? Surely not because he chose to hire him again after all of the sheep deaths in Summer 1962.... Aguirre chose to hire Jack again because he felt that Jack could do the job, it was a business decision that he obviously regreted later on.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2007, 12:28:42 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

I agree with you.

May I also add that is it also deeper for Aquirre since he likely liked Jack!

If he was homophobic or disliked Jack, nor could not care less about Jack, then he would have fired Jack immediately when he saw Ennis and Jack kissing!!

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 01:55:26 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

I agree with you.

May I also add that is it also deeper for Aquirre since he likely liked Jack!

If he was homophobic or disliked Jack, nor could not care less about Jack, then he would have fired Jack immediately when he saw Ennis and Jack kissing!!

Hugs!

if Aguirre fired Jack at that moment, who would tend to the sheep? in order to understand Aguirre's motivations you must first understand that he is a businessman in need of a profit.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2007, 02:52:18 pm »
In my opinion, Aguirre is less homophobic than you might think. Not only does he not fire them, which would have been inconvenient, but he doesn't even mention the rose-stemming that whole summer! He says nothing about it when he tells Jack about Uncle Harold (when he could have said something about having just seen them fooling around), and he says nothing about it when they're doing the final sheep count (when he also could said something like, "Count ain't what I'd hoped for, neither -- probably 'cause you two left the dogs to babysit the sheep while you stemmed the rose!").

And when he finally does mention it, when Jack goes looking for work the next summer, and he says, "Ain't got no work for YOU," we assume he means because Jack is gay. He might very well have not hired Jack anyway, since we was displeased with the sheep count the two times he did hire Jack. And he mentions the rose-stemming only after Jack asks about Ennis. In a way, it's almost like an afterthought.

And maybe Aguirre really wasn't as scandalized by it as we might suppose. After all, wasn't it Annie Proulx who said something about herders deliberately being sent up in pairs so they could, um, keep each other company? Or maybe Aguirre views Jack and Ennis as behaving like men in prison -- supposedly straight men having sex together only because there are no women available. After all, when Aguirre does mention it, he doesn't say, "I know you're queer." He complains about their work habits, not their sexual orientation.

Some have said they think Aguirre himself is gay. I don't think we see any clear evidence of that.

But I do think he's like Old Man Twist -- less homophobic than we might expect, given their time and place. I was struck by this oddity the second or third time I saw the movie (along with Alma's keeping secret what she saw). And I assumed it was because the filmmakers wanted to keep more focus on Ennis' inner conflicts and less on homophobic treatment they experienced from others.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2007, 07:49:12 pm »
Thanks ineedcrayons!

Thanks very much, indeed. Some of your views, and maybe all here, you do not know that I was thinking the same or close to those thoughts!!

I do not know, in the film, if Aquirre is homophobic... even if he seems to be?

You say this: In my opinion, Aguirre is less homophobic than you might think. Not only does he not fire them, which would have been inconvenient, but he doesn't even mention the rose-stemming
................

Yes, I too think that Aquirre is less homophobic that one might think! It just comes to my mind now, that he is curious about the two men's (Ennis and Jack) relationship then and there on top of the mountain? When I see the film, that is. Same about him in Annie's story?

May I place  the accent here on: curious??

Hugs!!

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2007, 07:56:42 pm »
Qualifications of degree aside, Aguirre, both in the film and in the original story, is pretty clearly homophobic. His contempt for Jack (and by implication Ennis), specifically in connection to the rose-stemming, is plainly conveyed.

As for his sexuality, one can only speculate (though there is no specific clue to suggest that the character is anything other than heterosexual).

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2007, 08:16:28 pm »
Qualifications of degree aside, Aguirre, both in the film and in the original story, is pretty clearly homophobic. His contempt for Jack (and by implication Ennis), specifically in connection to the rose-stemming, is plainly conveyed.

Well, I'm not saying that in his spare time he's writing big checks to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. But I think his degree of homophobia is ambiguous at best.

Aguirre has other reasons to feel contemptuous of Jack -- he feels (rightly or wrongly) that Jack didn't perform his job well either of the two years he worked there. And the rose-stemming, because it kept Jack from keeping a close eye on the sheep, is connected to that. And that's exactly how he says it to Jack. So I think it's possible that Jack's rose-stemming may add to Aguirre's contempt but is not the central cause of it; in fact Aguirre might have overlooked it entirely if the sheep count had been sufficient.

Maybe, anyway. This is a new idea for me, so I'm still exploring it. But I have had many similar debates with people regarding John Twist's lack of homophobia. John Twist also exhibits contempt for both Jack and Ennis. But in that case, there's even less indication that homophobia is the cause. On the contrary, he makes no homophobic comments at all.

I agree that there's no reason to think Aguirre is gay, and I'm generally opposed to speculating about things like that, lacking evidence.




moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2007, 08:24:14 pm »
Well, I'm not saying that in his spare time he's writing big checks to the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. But I think his degree of homophobia is ambiguous at best.
He certainly shows no sign of being virulently or violently homophobic. And it's true that the kernel of his disapproval of Jack (and Ennis) is that the job he hired and payed them for was not done to his satisfaction. I could easily see Aguirre saying some equivalent of the rose-stemming rebuke if Jack had been caught having relations with some woman on the mountain. Nonetheless, I think we are meant to see Aguirre as homophobic (probably more so, at any rate, than Old Man Twist can be seen as such).

moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2007, 08:55:59 pm »
I also think Aquirre is NOT the owner of the sheep....he is the foreman.
Are there specific clues in the story and/or film that lead you to think this, Jess? I had always assumed Aguirre was the owner.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2007, 09:01:51 pm »
the car he drives, his general demeanor, the office he works in. all signs to me of a man that is not at the top of the heap....like a man that is scrambling and has gotten a little power and lords that little bit of power over other people.

That's how I interpret him, too -- as the guy who was hired to hire the guys who tend the sheep. The actual sheep-owner, I think, would be fancier.


moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2007, 09:05:48 pm »
This is interesting...he certainly doesn't seem particularly wealthy (though such things can be relative, for any given context). He definitely doesn't seem like a happy man...potentially reflecting his position in the pecking order.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2007, 10:38:33 pm »
I think it would explain why he didn't fire Jack and Ennis that summer....he wouldn't want to have to tell the boss he made a bad choice....and probably the reason he made them bring the sheep down early...the storm was a convenient excuse to get Jack and Ennis off the payroll.


Ooooooooo... great point Jess!
:)


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2007, 11:18:53 am »
Thanks atz75, thanks moremojo,  thanks injest, and thanks ineedcrayons!!!!

Boy, I sure like your descriptions and thoughts here about Aguirre.

May I pose this question: Why is Aguirre called: Joe?

And here is another way to see maybe Aguirre: start by thinking that he is a gay or bi man; would that make you think differently why he hires Jack a first time? A second time?? Why he hires Ennis to be with Jack??

In the movie, one sure thing is that Aguirre finds Jack cute?? Right?? (Of course, Annie does not describe Jack as that cute but as buck tooth?)

At least, Aguirre teases Jack, since he knows that Jack and Ennis have mutual fun together (since he saw them playing like adolescent kids, and Ennis fall on Jack; as  mutual acts)!! So... is Aguiire also mutually having such gay or bi fun by teasing then Jack (who is somewhat at that moment on the somewhat bottom of the mountain ( a lower plateau), while he (Aguirre) looks up at Ennis who is on the way up top of the mountain ( a higher plateau) ??

Anyway, I am anxious for you to think that Aguirre is maybe gay or bi firstly and so hire Jack (who is cute to him), and then Jack and Ennis as a possible couple??

Hugs!!


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2007, 08:42:44 pm »
That's how I interpret him, too -- as the guy who was hired to hire the guys who tend the sheep. The actual sheep-owner, I think, would be fancier.



Aguirre could be owner or a partner in a small operation, making small profits and not living an ostentatious lifestyle. He could also be just a salaried bonused foreman fronting for the actual investors. My hunch is that he is the actual owner. The office was too personalized for it to be just company property, I loved the sign above the front door, "Trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" or something close to that!!! My dad had a sign similar to that posted on some of his property when I was a kid.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2007, 02:08:45 pm »
I just figured out who Aguirre must have been talking to on the phone (is this the thread where that question was asked?) I now believe it was someone who had worked there last summer with Jack and wanted to come back. But with Ennis standing there before him, Aguirre was saying "Not on your f**kin life!"

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2007, 02:15:33 pm »
I think that Jack worked alone in the previous summer.

Actually, I think that Aguirre intercepted a 1963 version of a telemarketing call. Probably someone asking him for a charitable donation, maybe the Sierra Club's Wyoming chapter was having a fund raiser.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2007, 06:22:07 pm »
Thanks all of you!!

You sure bring up an interesting idea Front-Ranger in saying this: I just figured out who Aguirre must have been talking to on the phone (is this the thread where that question was asked?) I now believe it was someone who had worked there last summer with Jack and wanted to come back. But with Ennis standing there before him, Aguirre was saying "Not on your f**kin life!"


.........
Front-Ranger: I would not be surprised that much by that!! To me, likely so... maybe!! Any proof of this by Annie's book?
..........

Brokeplex, what makes you think that Jack worked alone that previous Summer?? I know that I did think that too, but any proof in the movie or book??
..........

And, may I repose my question: Why is Aguirre named: Joe??

Hugs to you and to all!! And Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and Holidays!!

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2007, 11:53:41 am »
Something just reminded me of what I can't stand about Aguirre and it applies to Lureen as well. Aguirre and Lureen were perfectly happy to have Jack as an employee or a husband and didn't really care if he was gay or straight, as long as he served their purposes. But when he did anything that was outside their comfort level or cost them something, then all of a sudden they condemned him. In my mind, they killed him just as much as those killer mechanics did by their apathy, judgmental attitude, and self-centerdness.

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2007, 12:06:17 pm »
Something just reminded me of what I can't stand about Aguirre and it applies to Lureen as well. Aguirre and Lureen were perfectly happy to have Jack as an employee or a husband and didn't really care if he was gay or straight, as long as he served their purposes. But when he did anything that was outside their comfort level or cost them something, then all of a sudden they condemned him. In my mind, they killed him just as much as those killer mechanics did by their apathy, judgmental attitude, and self-centerdness.

Well, in Aguirre's case I would say that not caring if Jack is gay or straight as long as he did his job is a GOOD thing. That seems like just what you would want in an employer. As a boss, Aguirre's pretty entitled to expect Jack to serve his purpose -- that is, to do his job. And if what Jack did that was outside Aguirre's comfort level was not perform his job well, thereby costing Aguirre sheep/money, then Aguirre seems within his rights to object. I don't see how that's the equivalent of killing him.

As for Lureen, I think she DID care if her husband was gay or straight. And as his wife, she's entitled to care. She expected him to be straight, and when it turned out he wasn't, then she was no longer happy. But I don't think she condemned him; she put up with him, albeit turning her focus on her work and away from her frustrating marriage. I guess I don't see that as the equivalent of killing him, either.




Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #47 on: December 18, 2007, 03:56:14 pm »
I read in one of the essays in "Reading Brokeback Mountain" that the expression on Aguirre's (Quaid to be exact)  face in the film was more of pain rather than disgust when he espied Ennis and Jack roiling in the dust. Does anyone else see that?

 I think that Aguirre should have chewed Jack's ass out left and right when he came down to tell him about Uncle Harold. He chose not too do so, he simply scowled. Jack was messing around with Ennis, when Ennis should have been TENDING TO THE SHEEP! Aguirre is in business, and basically the boys were letting the coyotes eat the sheep while they played around. I am amazed at how patient Aguirre was with Jack. I wouldn't have had that type of patience with Jack. I chewed out a straight engineer last weekend for giving me bad data logs on a well, that costs me money to have bad logs.

Aguirre was more patient than me! It is not homophobia, or heterophobia to expect an employee to do finish their tasks.

Now to the comment Aguirre made in the trailer in 1964 when Jack came back for a new job. Essentially, Aguirre was willing to let Jack leave without mentioning his knowledge that Ennis and Jack's affair created an inattention to the sheep. This negligence contributed to the unacceptable financial losses Aguirre suffered that year. Of course Aguirre wasn't going to hire him again! But he didn't bring up his knowledge of their 'affair'.... UNTIL, Jack tried to use Aguirre as a dating service!

" Ennis del Mar ain't been around, has he?"  Wow, what cheek!! I might not have used such a cute euphemism as "stemming the rose" if I had addressed Jack under those circumstances where he lost me money. From the standpoint of Aguirre, Ennis and Jack were simply irresponsible and failed in their tasks.

moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #48 on: December 18, 2007, 05:05:07 pm »
From the standpoint of Aguirre, Ennis and Jack were simply irresponsible and failed in their tasks.
Ah, but they succeeded in something much, much more important.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #49 on: December 18, 2007, 05:29:35 pm »
I was reading in True West Magazine that the main reason two sheepherders were sent up the mountain together was so that they could, er, keep each other company through the long summer. Even for the most staunchly straight guy, a whole summer without the companionship of anything but sheep and dogs was just too much to ask.

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2007, 05:31:55 pm »
Now to the comment Aguirre made in the trailer in 1964 when Jack came back for a new job. Essentially, Aguirre was willing to let Jack leave without mentioning his knowledge that Ennis and Jack's affair created an inattention to the sheep. This negligence contributed to the unacceptable financial losses Aguirre suffered that year. Of course Aguirre wasn't going to hire him again! But he didn't bring up his knowledge of their 'affair'.... UNTIL, Jack tried to use Aguirre as a dating service!

Exactly!

Ah, but they succeeded in something much, much more important.

True. But that would be from our standpoint.

I was reading in True West Magazine that the main reason two sheepherders were sent up the mountain together was so that they could, er, keep each other company through the long summer. Even for the most staunchly straight guy, a whole summer without the companionship of anything but sheep and dogs was just too much to ask.

Yes, that's what I've heard, too. And that the employers were often pretty laissez faire about how they defined "keep each other company."

 ;)



moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2007, 05:58:52 pm »
But if Aguirre were sending Jack and Ennis up the mountain together to keep each other company, why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that?

It's also important to remember that Aguirre is breaking the rules himself, from the very beginning, by asking one of the boys to camp overnight on land declared off-limits for such by the law. Jack and Ennis could perhaps be excused for being lax with Aguirre's rules when he himself was lax with the government's rules.

moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2007, 06:04:56 pm »
My opinion of Aguirre has changed recently.  It seems that when Jack was exiting the trailer after his last encounter with Aguirre, a scene was cut which showed two mechanics who  stare accusingly at Jack.  It seems Aguirre had spilled the beans to a few of the locals about what he had witnessed.  Conjecture is that after Jack saw their reaction, he was apt to prove his heterosexuality and hooked up with Lureen.

Darn, I guess we will never get to see those deleted scenes. My source was READING BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN.
The film as it now stands would complicate this implication, since we see Jack hitting on rodeo-clown Jimbo (admittedly in Texas) after his exchange with Aguirre.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2007, 06:14:19 pm »
But if Aguirre were sending Jack and Ennis up the mountain together to keep each other company, why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that?

Because the sheep count wasn't what he'd hoped for.


moremojo

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2007, 06:22:24 pm »
Exactly, the bureaucrats in Washington did not then and probably now still do not understand the challenges faced in rural areas.
While this is no doubt true, it is worth remembering that some of those Washington bureaucrats were elected to office by the very Rocky Mountain ranch folk who seem to chafe at the restrictions their representatives impose upon them. By the same token, a few of those Washington bureaucrats come from ranch and farming backgrounds (e.g., Dick Cheney, Larry Craig).

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2007, 12:51:29 am »
Ah, but they succeeded in something much, much more important.

You are correct, without their taking the time to establish their relationship there would be no story here. But, from Joe Aguirre's point of view ( and I started this thread to talk about Joe and his motivations, strengths and weaknesses), they were bad hires, with Ennis less a bad hire than Jack.

That doesn't mean that I don't love Jack. Jack as a character held my heart in his hands right from the beginning, when I first read the ss. Ennis finally had me in the last scenes of the movie.   

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2007, 07:43:13 pm »
Wow, very interesting comments! Thanks all of you!!

One comment is: KISS, straight guys don't kiss! I do not think that I ever seen a straight guy kiss, moi nor anyone straight, gay, bi or otherwise!!

But since Ennis did kiss Jack when Aquirre was looking from afar, and if you consider all three straights (somehow or maybe one or two), then the movie was different from Annie's story?

If the movie would have been more strict to Annie's story, would Aquirre be otherwise?

Hugs!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and  Happy Gay Holidays to all!!

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2007, 11:38:21 pm »
I'm late to the party.  Some brief thoughts that may have already been said:

I have never seen any sign of homophobia at all in Aguirre.  He's pissed that they let the dogs babysit the sheep, not that they stemmed the rose.  I think his "I don't have no work for you" is one of those points in the movie to show us the paranoia Ennis and Jack have to live with, the constant "What did that person mean by that?  Do they Know?"


Men at the top of the heap can be just as cranky as guys with bosses stepping on their necks.  Running the business isn't less pressure than taking orders.


One thing I always see in Randy Quaid's performance is a  - I don't know what term to use - a kind of deliberate aware semi-ironic tone, like from a very differently-toned movie, one where all the actors are alluding to the fact that they know they are in a movie, almost sort of like the old TV show "Get Smart."  Especially in the Uncle Harold scene.  I always feel like Jake (the actor, I mean) senses this about Randy Quaid's performance in that scene, so doesn't quite know how to play it.  He kind of goes along with it too.  Does anybody get what I'm trying to say?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #58 on: December 20, 2007, 10:47:55 am »



One thing I always see in Randy Quaid's performance is a  - I don't know what term to use - a kind of deliberate aware semi-ironic tone, like from a very differently-toned movie, one where all the actors are alluding to the fact that they know they are in a movie, almost sort of like the old TV show "Get Smart."  Especially in the Uncle Harold scene.  I always feel like Jake (the actor, I mean) senses this about Randy Quaid's performance in that scene, so doesn't quite know how to play it.  He kind of goes along with it too.  Does anybody get what I'm trying to say?

just as a clarification, are you saying that Randy Quaid's performance as Aguirre has a touch of irony? or are you saying that Jake Gyllenhaal is playing Jack Twist with a touch of irony?

I think that Quaid captured a weary tone and demeanor of a businessman who is probably tired of fighting all of the elements that make his tasks difficult. I can see how that might be thought of as an semi-ironic tone.

But, I have noticed that at times in the film, Gyllenhaal does come across as somewhat ironic to me and somewhat removed from the character, but at other times, very serious and very into the Jack Twist character. Heath Ledger on the other hand is consistently right into the Del Mar character, and I am very disappointed that he didn't win an Oscar for his role. 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #59 on: December 20, 2007, 11:06:59 am »
But, I have noticed that at times in the film, Gyllenhaal does come across as somewhat ironic to me and somewhat removed from the character, but at other times, very serious and very into the Jack Twist character.

I remember one reviewer saying he was put off, at first, by Jake's performance. The reviewer thought that Jake appeared to be too obviously posturing as the classic iconic cowboy. Then he (the reviewer) realized that what Jake actually was doing was playing a character who postured as the classic iconic cowboy. Good distinction, and I think Jake pulled it off well.




Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #60 on: December 20, 2007, 11:09:45 am »
Oh man, if we get on the subject again about the tragic oscar loss that Ledger should have won...I'll miss my flight in a few hours!!!  :)

but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.

And Aguirre really didn't take umbrage anyway. It was a noteable part of the film, for me, that Aguirre did not rage or take obvious offense at what he saw. It seems safe to say that in 1963 in that area of the world homosexuality was very much in the closet for reasons of what happened to the murdered man Ennis' father forced him to view. Yet, Aguirre basically had a 'holy shit' look on his face and essentially let it go. A year later he reasonably calmly told Jack to get lost, but his handling of the situation was far less mean and aggressive than one would have expected. In fact, his reaction and action was almost as if he was aware of such happening before and responded with a 'not this again' attitude.

And to me this was ironic because it was not the attitude that led to the man in the ditch or, later, Jack (either real or flashback).

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #61 on: December 20, 2007, 11:30:55 am »
Good points. I have hoped that people would look at Aguirre as a hard pressed businessman, not just a homophobe. He was disappointed in Twists performance as a sheepherder, not in Twist's liaison with Delmar.

I love Jack, but he sure had a helluva lot of cheek trying to use Aguirre as a "dating service" - when he tried find out the location of Delmar from Joe.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #62 on: December 20, 2007, 12:55:11 pm »
but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.
Annie Proulx herself reported that old ranch hands informed her that men would sometimes be assigned herding jobs with other men precisely so that they could keep each other company...implying that they sometimes used one another for sexual release. It has simply been pointed out in this thread (and not by me) that Aguirre possibly had the same motivation. I myself don't see this because of Aguirre's obvious displeasure at seeing Ennis and Jack together in a physical way.

Slightly off-topic, but I for one do expect there is a fair amount of man-on-man sex in the military, sports teams, etc,...we just don't usually hear about it.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #63 on: December 20, 2007, 01:06:26 pm »
I myself don't see this because of Aguirre's obvious displeasure at seeing Ennis and Jack together in a physical way.

Aguirre always looks so sour it's hard to tell when he's actually displeased. But his expression certainly doesn't seem to say, "Alright! Things are going just the way I'd hoped!"

but, regarding Aguirre, I think there is no way as suggested earlier that when he sent the men to the mountain..."why would he take umbrage when they ended up doing precisely that (having sex)?" This would suggest that the military, sports teams, etc etc would be an expected venue for male sexual activity. totally not the case.

Whether or not that is the case, it's a different situation. Members of sports teams, and even the military, are not as isolated as sheepherders would be.

By the way, totally OT, but why do we call them "sheep herders" or "sheepherders" rather than "shepherds"?






Offline Fran

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #64 on: December 20, 2007, 01:33:59 pm »
To his credit, Joe Aguirre did wait until Ennis had ridden back to the sheep before he rode up to tell Jack about Uncle Harold. It seems to me that Joe didn't want to surprise Jack and Ennis or, for that matter, confront them, which he easily could have done had he not waited. 

Joe's only thinking about his sheep.  When he refused to hire Jack for a third summer, it's because he and Ennis screwed up:  Joe ended up with some sheep that clearly weren't his, and the count wasn't what Joe expected it to be.  Joe had let Jack and Ennis know that he was dissatisfied with their job performance after the sheep were brought down from the mountain.  Joe was probably amazed that Jack could even imagine that he'd rehire him.  To me, Joe seems to be thinking, Jack, do you think I'd be so stupid as to hire you again?  Not on your life.  For Joe, Jack's question about Ennis was the last straw.  Only then did Joe bring up the "stemming the rose" part.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #65 on: December 20, 2007, 01:40:23 pm »


By the way, totally OT, but why do we call them "sheep herders" or "sheepherders" rather than "shepherds"?



I think that "shepherd" somehow sounds too old-fashioned (or something like that).  **But** I do think that word is particularly important to recognize - as being what Ennis and Jack actually are in '63 - to the discussions of BBM and religious symbolism (even very loose religious symbolism).

I also think the shepherd reference feels very classical and pastoral. Maybe it's also another aspect of the famous old "classical allusions" topic. If Brokeback is a kind of Eden or Paradise Lost in a religious sense, it's also a Golden Age (or phase) for Ennis and Jack in a more classical sense... in both instances the metaphor is of an ideal place or time that cannot be accessed again once it's been exited. 
« Last Edit: December 21, 2007, 01:53:30 am by atz75 »
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #66 on: December 20, 2007, 08:00:03 pm »
May Aguirre (as a portrait) help Ennisses and Jacks... as in the movie, somehow, all over the world to-day!!

In wondrous ways we can help and be helped, as straights, as bi, as gays, as others!! Hopefully, for humanity!

I think that Aguirre represents an somewhat good part somehow about humanity in the BM movie, since he did give Ennis and Jack jobs there and then. And Aguirre continued to help them till he could, even if what he saw from afar like the playing, kiss and hugs between Ennis and Jack was thruth!! He did not kill them,
thanks goodness!!

What else can one say about Aguirre's humanity?

Hugs!!

Merry, Merry, Merry Christmas and gay Holidays to all on Bettermost and on Earth!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #67 on: December 21, 2007, 12:49:49 am »
I think that shepherd somehow sounds too old-fashioned (or something like that).  **But** I do think that word is particularly important to recognize - as being what Ennis and Jack actually are in '63 - to the discussions of BBM and religious symbolism (even very loose religious symbolism).

I also think the shepherd reference feels very classical and pastoral. Maybe it's also another aspect of the famous old "classical allusions" topic. If Brokeback is a kind of Eden or Paradise Lost in a religious sense, it's also a Golden Age (or phase) for Ennis and Jack in a more classical sense... in both instances the metaphor is of an ideal place or time that cannot be accessed again once it's been exited. 

good point about the classical allusions, in "Reading Brokeback Mountain" ed. Jim Stacy, the essay "Arcadia and the Passionate Shepherds of Brokeback Mountain" by Henry Alley explores this comparison. I am delighted I bought the book on amazon. someone here on bettermost alerted me to the book. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #68 on: December 21, 2007, 11:18:00 am »
Wow, I sure like the comments here!!

As you HeirKaiser say: It was a noteable part of the film, for me, that Aguirre did not rage or take obvious offense at what he saw. It seems safe to say that in 1963 in that area of the world homosexuality was very much in the closet for reasons of what happened to the murdered man Ennis' father forced him to view. Yet, Aguirre basically had a 'holy shit' look on his face and essentially let it go. A year later he reasonably calmly told Jack to get lost, but his handling of the situation was far less mean and aggressive than one would have expected.
...........

May I ask if you HeirKaiser or any others here on Bettermost, think those Aguirre actions and re-actions are so presented in the film, because the one actor who played him felt that his role should be so done?? Or it was the producer, director, script writors, others, who told him to act that in those ways??  Did Annie show such as an Aguirre character?

....
Hugs!!
Merry Gay times to all and Merry Christmas too plus Great Merry Holidays!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #69 on: December 21, 2007, 12:48:59 pm »
Wow, I sure like the comments here!!

May I ask if you HeirKaiser or any others here on Bettermost, think those Aguirre actions and re-actions are so presented in the film, because the one actor who played him felt that his role should be so done?? Or it was the producer, director, script writors, others, who told him to act that in those ways??  Did Annie show such as an Aguirre character?

....
Hugs!!
Merry Gay times to all and Merry Christmas too plus Great Merry Holidays!!

I see Randy Quaid as perfect for the role of Joe Aguirre, and that is one of the reasons that Quaid's supporting role in the film is so important to me. Randy Quaid has the ability to look gruff and slightly exasperated and pained at the same time. So, to me it was a combination of Quaid fitting perfectly into a role that seemingly was made for him. I don't know if AP had anyone in mind when she sketched the Joe Aguirre character, I think that she met with some ranch owners and foremen and talked about the sheep ranching industry and what is was like in the 1960's. I always anticipate that type of verisimilitude from AP. Now when Ossana and McMurtry completed their sp, they probably had Quaid in mind. Quaid has worked with McMurtry before. The first movie I saw Quaid in was Peter Bogdanovich's "Last Picture Show", based on a McMurtry story. For a look at a dying oil bust town in Texas in the 1950's, go watch it. I grew up with some of the analogs to some of the characters in that movie.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2007, 03:55:29 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say: I see Randy Quaid as perfect for the role of Joe Aguirre
..........

Brokeplex, may I totally agree with you. And your description of Randy Quaid's acting as Aguirre, is superb! I find his acting superb too!

Wonder who did coach Randy Quaid to do such a superb role? You know... that? Does anyone?

Hugs!!
Merry Gay Christmas to you and to your buddy and to all, with many hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2007, 08:08:51 pm »
I don't know who coached him. Quaid has Texas roots, so the "western" accent is legit, not coached. The acting, the movement, the swagger, the rolling of the eyes to heaven....that is all Quaid, that is pretty much how he acts in most of the movies I have seen him in.

He got kinda goofy in "Independence Day" as his character is a bit goofy. But if you watch him closely in "ID", you can still see some of what comes out in the Joe Aguirre character.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #72 on: December 23, 2007, 01:00:04 pm »
I stand corrected. Yes, Quaid's character paid the aliens back for all of that "sexual abuse" they had dished out to him earlier when he was "abducted".

Wasn't the phrase used by Quaid's character when he rammed his F 1-11 up into the alien ship, "up yours!" ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #73 on: December 23, 2007, 01:26:13 pm »
Injest and brokeplex, you two got me lost now!!

Completely!!

Hugs!!
Merry Christmas and Happy gay Holidays!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #74 on: December 23, 2007, 01:39:16 pm »
now now...that was the town yokels that made the comment about the 'sexual abuse'....I am sure the aliens were just doing legitimate xenological research.

and Mr. Quaid was saying "Up your secret weapons opening.....where you are in fact quite vulnerable"

(the jet exploded before he finished the sentence....making it sound like he was implying something else, but I can assure you that a man of such character and grace would not yell such a thing)

Congratulations Injest, I am delighted to see that you have successfully transformed the character played by Quaid in ID, into the model of political correctness. That was difficult to do, but I must admit that you have converted me towards a new vision of that character. Now, if you can only create a new model for an examination of the aliens. I await eagerly to witness your  powers working on those aliens.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #75 on: December 24, 2007, 09:17:04 am »
Well,I donīt know if this has been said before,because Iīve found the forum too late,but here I goĄ:iIMO,Aguirre in the scene where they are playing shirtless while he is seeing them at distance,shows the difference between the idilic environment theyīve lived in BBM and the real world theyīre going to find when they came back to their usual life.For me this scene is brutal for this reason... :-\ He was a man with no time to sentimental issues,since his only interet was making money and,of course,Ennis and Jack were then the ones who must guarantee this.Aguirre has been very criticised,but I find logical that he thought that if his workers were not only playing sexual games,but moreover,in love,their work would be neglicted...For this reason,he invented the excuse of the storm that was coming to avoid another problems with his real interets.But I must say that I donīt like him at all;I only an putting myself in his shoes...
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are lifeīs tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #76 on: December 24, 2007, 12:20:52 pm »
Thanks injest, thanks myprivatejack, thanks brokeplex, and thanks all others too!!

May we have more Ennis' and Jacks playing shirtless and free!!

But reading today by the CBC on Yahoo Canada (see it to view the clip right now), that a school in Ontario, at Ottawa (which is the Capital of Canada) cut out the word Christmas in a song and replaced it with festive, does not make me think that such freedom as Ennis and Jack have on top of the Brokeback Mountain will exist more and more, but less and less!!

Remember the song: Silver bells, soon it will be Christmas Day... that is a wonderful part of our free democratic countries in the USA, Canada, England, France... among others!! To-day, but now how long will that freedom last as words are being replaced to accomodate reasonably others like islam muslims, some jews (not all jews) and other such religions and non-religious??

The school board now thinks that it should have maybe considered even replacing all Christmas songs!! Wow!! What do you think? Will we now be forced to burn the Brokeback Mountain movie since it mentions some religions or something likewise??

Joe Aguirre did not stop Ennis and Jack from having their freedom, thank goodness if he was anti-gay or not!! But now, we must consider having that Aguirre out of the BM movie, because certain groups (religious or not) demand it, simply because some christians, jews and others want to accomodate too much??

It is now Christmas Eve, and I think that this subject of keeping Joe Aguirre as a charactor in the BM movie is important to freedom!! What do you think?

Hugs!!  Merry, Merry, Merry Free Christmas!!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #77 on: December 24, 2007, 05:49:47 pm »
It is now Christmas Eve, and I think that this subject of keeping Joe Aguirre as a charactor in the BM movie is important to freedom!! What do you think?

I don't know about that, but I do believe that keeping Joe Aguirre as the central subject of this thread is important to the topic!

A quick Merry Christmas doesn't hurt, though!  :D


Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #78 on: December 25, 2007, 12:12:43 pm »
Ineedcrayons, thanks, and thanks to all other too!!

Joyeux Noel, Merry Merry Merry Christmas,Feliz Navidad, and in all other languages too!!
To you and to all on Bettermost, and all on earth too!!

Hugs!!

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2007, 01:56:51 pm »

It is now Christmas Eve, and I think that this subject of keeping Joe Aguirre as a charactor in the BM movie is important to freedom!! What do you think?

Hugs!!  Merry, Merry, Merry Free Christmas!!

Yes,I also think itīs important to freedom IMO because we can see him as a representative of the outer world beyond BBM;this world that made Ennis live in a constant denial of what he was and what he felt.This word that didnīt understand their love and this world that,at the end,killed Jack for being himself.Heīs like a symbolism of misunderstanding and intolerance,is not this important to freedom if we compare?.
I like your silences,quiet conversations of evident sensations,where our words are lifeīs tinsels.
The lost illusions are the found truths.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2007, 11:37:54 am »
Thanks myprivatejack!

Indeed, I see to that Aguirre was for a better world among men!!

Aguirre, to me, did tolerate Ennis and Jack. And surely could have fired them immediately if he would have been in a rage seing them shirtless and playing, and even could have killed them from afar, had he been like a muslim of a radical islam or other such intolerant religion or non-religion. To-day unfortunately, the woman who came back to her country was murdered in Pakistan because she is female and educated, and wanted to run as President in Pakistan, and sought freedom!!

Long live Aguirres, Ennis', Jacks, and others for freedom among and for gay men, and for ladies being and all children educated in the world!!
It seems evident in the movie, that Aguirre was for freedom!! Is that so in the book?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2007, 02:36:33 pm »
Well,I donīt know if this has been said before,because Iīve found the forum too late,but here I goĄ:iIMO,Aguirre in the scene where they are playing shirtless while he is seeing them at distance,shows the difference between the idilic environment theyīve lived in BBM and the real world theyīre going to find when they came back to their usual life.For me this scene is brutal for this reason... :-\ He was a man with no time to sentimental issues,since his only interet was making money and,of course,Ennis and Jack were then the ones who must guarantee this.Aguirre has been very criticised,but I find logical that he thought that if his workers were not only playing sexual games,but moreover,in love,their work would be neglicted...For this reason,he invented the excuse of the storm that was coming to avoid another problems with his real interets.But I must say that I donīt like him at all;I only an putting myself in his shoes...

I don't think Aguirre was "inventing" the weather patterns in order to create an early shovedown for Ennis and Jack. It would have been in Aguirre's financial interests to leave the sheep on the allotments as long as possible. (free grass on the public lands !) The weather in the sheep industry and cattle industry dictates the agenda. Aguirre could not afford to leave the sheep up on the mountain for too long, if the weather was turning suddenly cooler in mid Aug. If the sheep were trapped in snow on the mountain pastures, the loss of sheep would be far in excess of the 25% he suffered in 1962. Certainly, Aguirre was concerned that the boys were "playing around" and probably neglecting his sheep. But I don't think that he would bring them down a month early just based upon that consideration.  I find it interesting that in Proulx's short story, Aguirre made three trips up the mountain to give messages to or inspect the boys work. In the movie we know of only two. Anther little departure that the movie makes from the short story.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2007, 05:27:52 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, and thanks to all too!!

Brokeplex, you say: I find it interesting that in Proulx's short story, Aguirre made three trips up the mountain to give messages to or inspect the boys work. In the movie we know of only two. Anther little departure that the movie makes from the short story.
...

So Brokeplex, please detail which one was left out??

Hugs!! Happy Gay Holidays to you all and to all on earth!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #83 on: December 28, 2007, 01:20:03 pm »
Have you read the short story Artiste?

Please go read it carefully, and then I will be delighted to discuss this with you at length.

Meanwhile, have a Happy New Year! 

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #84 on: December 29, 2007, 08:07:34 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

Your suggestion is good, you know.

To-day, I have found some pages of Annie's story. And plan to find time to read these soonest.

Be ready for questions I will pose to you about Aguirre.. or I will use my teacher's strap??

You think that Aguiree was like a teacher in the book or the movie?  Question is asked also to all here!!

Hugs!! Happy Gay Holidays and New Year to you, and to all, with Aguirre too!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #85 on: December 29, 2007, 08:12:51 pm »
You continue to amuse me Artiste. Would that be a leather strap Artiste?

May I suggest that you also order a copy of "Reading Brokeback". There is an essay contained that has as a subpremise that the film "Brokeback Mountain" uses an "anti-gay" subtext. I'm sure that I just got your undivided attention Artiste!

 I will comment myself on that essay in future days.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2007, 02:03:10 pm »
Thanks brokeplex! You made me smile!

That book can be copied on the internet?

About bonfire of vanities, do you (and to all) think that Aguirre thought about that concerning Ennis and Jack??

Hugs!!

May your portrait of love be a shining star!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2007, 08:42:52 pm »
no, you must order it on Amazon:

"Reading Brokeback Mountain" edited by Jim Stacy ISBN-13: 978-0-7864-3044-4

I paid around 30$ for it.

I will be commenting today on one of the essays in the book.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #88 on: December 31, 2007, 11:37:34 pm »
May all Aguirres help us gay men... be more happy with jobs and more!!

And may we all gay men accept all Aguirres!! May we all help each other make a better world of peace for all mankind!!

Brokeplex and to all of you: May I wish you all the best, happiness and health and desires in 2008,  and  look forward again for your continued welcomed communications!!
 soon.


Hugs!!

Offline "Joseph Golden"

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I think there's more to this Joe Aguirre character than meets the eye. Heres a extract fro the book.

They believed themselves invisible, not knowing Joe Aguirre had watched them through his 10x42 binoculars for ten minutes one day, waiting until they'd buttoned up their jeans

What kind of homophobic man would watch to men have sex for ten minutes?

He didn't have to, he could of rode off and and came back another time. But he didn't he watched them.

My opine is that theres more to this Joe character than meets the eye,

What do you think?
Don’t lie, don’t try to fool me, Ennis. I know what it means. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty.

Offline Kd5000

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At 1:29 seconds on this Youtube trailer,



I think we see the Grease Monkeys that Aguirre had confided in.  Of course, the trailer could possibly be out of order, but as I had posted earlier, a scene was edited out when Jack leaves Agurre's trailer for the last time and two grease monkeys are watching him.  This image was not in the movie.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks melb_boy88 and thanks Kd5000, and thanks to all too!!

Melb_boy88, yesterday I wanted to write about that 10 minutes too, as I had read that two days ago which bewildered me!! Why would Aguirre, according to Annie's writing, see Ennis and Jack fooling around for that length of 10 minutes time, until they zipped their jeans??

So is Aguirre straight, gay, bi, or other? Hard to say!! Straights (men) like to see two women get it on, but does not about two men since they get angry or violent about that even as a thought!!

Did I say before that I had thought that Aguirre was something?? Maybe Aguirre was infatuated with Jack?? Dare I ask!! ??
......

Kd5000, I just saw that clip, but do not find 2 grease monkeys looking at Jack?? Can you find that? Are you DozerBoy25? Or Kd Lang?

That clip always makes me sad. I become even sader the more I play it (dozens plus varied months)! Wonder why? I wonder why!! At least, Aguirre does not make me sad in this clip (trailer)!!
.....

Hugs, hugs!! May all Aguirres be as kind to gay men and to straights and to bis, and to others on this Earth to make it a Happy place for all mankind!!

Offline brokeplex

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I think there's more to this Joe Aguirre character than meets the eye. Heres a extract fro the book.

They believed themselves invisible, not knowing Joe Aguirre had watched them through his 10x42 binoculars for ten minutes one day, waiting until they'd buttoned up their jeans

What kind of homophobic man would watch to men have sex for ten minutes?

He didn't have to, he could of rode off and and came back another time. But he didn't he watched them.

My opine is that theres more to this Joe character than meets the eye,

What do you think?

One of the reasons he watched the boys could be that he wanted to know why his herder was in base camp and not with the sheep. Why was Jack, who he had hired to be the herder, down at base camp with Ennis? Joe watched until he saw Ennis saddle up and ride up to the sheep. Joe continued watching and saw that Ennis knew how to be a good sheep herder so he was at least relieved to see that. Lets not forget that the "Brokeback" experience for Aguirre was one of financial loss or gain, he should have inspected the performance of his hired hands, in fact I think that he needed to pay unscheduled visits a lot more. His investment in the 1000 sheep was in the hands of the boys.

Was there another type of curiosity on the part of Aguirre? We'll never know.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokeplex!!

But Aguirre watched Ennis and Jack during ten minutes during sex Ennis and Jack were having as a couple??

Lucky him? Dare I state?

Hugs!! Happy New Year full of joys to you and to all, to Aguirres too!!

Offline brokeplex

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what is your point Artiste? he stared at them from up on a mountain ridge because he wanted to see if one of them would stop the nookies and go care for his sheep. was he also titilated to see two men together having sex. maybe, we'll never know.

Offline Artiste

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Thanks brokplex!

Well said is your comment!!

Why do we not consider maybe Aguirre as bi or gay or something else? Remember the 60's?

May I pose to you and to all that question?

Hugs!! In 2008, may we all continue torespond to concerns of others!! And create gay times!!

Offline brokeplex

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We can only logically consider Aguirre as bi or gay if we have something concrete which leads us to that conclusion. The only facts that I have read which have caused some suspicion is the fact that he watched the boys in their nookies for 10 minutes thru the binoculars.

"They believed themselves to be invisible, not knowing Joe Aguirre had watched them through his 10x42 binoculars for ten minutes one day, waiting until they'd buttoned up their jeans, waiting until Ennis rode back to the sheep, before bringing the message that Jack's people had sent word that his Uncle Harold was in the hospital with pneumonia and expected not to make it."

I can interpret this action on Aguirre's part in many ways, the most logical is that he wanted to see who was going to tend to the sheep. Were the boys going to goof off for most of the morning, if so Aguirre needed to know then, he could possibly replace them with one of his other employees. Fortunately for Jack and Ennis, the nookies lasted only ten minutes, longer and Aguirre might have fired them on the spot.

Offline serious crayons

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We can only logically consider Aguirre as bi or gay if we have something concrete which leads us to that conclusion.

I agree. I don't like speculating about possibilities outside of what the text tells us. That includes Aguirre's sexuality and similar issues.

I did once see a pretty convincing argument that Lureen was pregnant when she met Jack. I rolled my eyes at that possibility for a long time, but this argument was based on actual textual info. I can't remember much of it now, though.

 ??? :-X

Offline Brown Eyes

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I did once see a pretty convincing argument that Lureen was pregnant when she met Jack. I rolled my eyes at that possibility for a long time, but this argument was based on actual textual info. I can't remember much of it now, though.

 ??? :-X

It was an argument based on a really detailed (I mean, really, really, really detailed) analysis of the timeline... I recall it was a topic started back in the old imdb days.  I most definitely don't remember all the details either.  But, the argument boiled down to the idea that Lureen was in a big rush to get married because she was probably already pregnant when she married Jack.


Sorry for the tangent.... back to Aguirre....

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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It was an argument based on a really detailed (I mean, really, really, really detailed) analysis of the timeline... I recall it was a topic started back in the old imdb days.  I most definitely don't remember all the details either.  But, the argument boiled down to the idea that Lureen was in a big rush to get married because she was probably already pregnant when she married Jack.

That was part of it. I believe there was some blue-eyed/brown-eyed stuff and some other clues from the movie. I think it would be a good TOTW someday, and perhaps I can summon up some more details of the argument by then.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2008, 01:27:20 am »
Thank you for bringing this up! Please do find that speculative info on Lureen's pregnancy. Your thoughts have opened up a whole new avenue for my understanding as to why she chose to marry Jack. The marriage didn't make a lot of sense to me at first glance.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2008, 12:07:32 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, thanks ineedcrayons, thanks atz75, and thanks all too!!

One thing bugs me, in the movie, about Lureen indeed!! Concerning Jack's wife, maybe others, you, and I, will talk more about that on her thread? Is there one about her?

Coming back to the subject being Aguirre, this charater as portrait in the movie, may I ask if any of you ladies would have married him??  And men, would you too as in a gay marriage; please state if you are straight, gay, bi  or other, if you care and can? All: can you possibly add why, like reason(s) pro or con, if not neutral; or any other points!!

Hugs!! May I Aguirres continue to be helpful to gays and to others!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #102 on: January 04, 2008, 02:06:59 pm »
It was an argument based on a really detailed (I mean, really, really, really detailed) analysis of the timeline... I recall it was a topic started back in the old imdb days.  I most definitely don't remember all the details either.  But, the argument boiled down to the idea that Lureen was in a big rush to get married because she was probably already pregnant when she married Jack.


Sorry for the tangent.... back to Aguirre....



I think that I may have figured out at least part of this analysis just watching film and the pertinent scenes closely last night.

1) Jack enters the rodeo contest at the Childress Co fair in Aug 1966 - you can see the marquee signs above the announcers both listing the dates of the fair.

2) Jack and Lureen make whoppee that night in her T-bird "...till daddy takes the T-bird awayyyyyyy!"

3) Jack sends a post card to Ennis about coming into Riverton on the 24th, the postmark on the card reads Sept 1967

4) After meeting Alma, Jack tells all that his little boy is 8 months old.

Lets do the math - if little Bobby was conceived in Aug 1966 then he would be normally born around April 1967. But in Sept 1967 Jack says Bobby is 8 months old, if Jack is the father, he couldn't be older than 5 months.

So, Jack isn't the father of Bobby! This explains some of the contempt that L.D. has for Jack and why he had no problem hinting at a cash settlement if Jack would just bug out of Childress. I have also always felt that OMT was not the father of Jack, so there is a symmetry here.
 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #103 on: January 04, 2008, 02:29:26 pm »
Hold that thought, brokeplex!

I'd love to discuss this more thoroughly, but that's not the subject of this thread, and I'd prefer to see it in a thread devoted to that subject so that others who aren't interested in Aguirre but are interested in Lureen's pregnancy will know that the conversation exists.

I asked Chriss about making this issue a TOTW. If she prefers not to, I'll just start a different thread on the topic.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #104 on: January 04, 2008, 02:39:37 pm »
AOK with me.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #105 on: January 04, 2008, 05:16:44 pm »
Wow, very interesting!

Brilliant adding brokeplex! That answers my quest... of a long time ago, I felt so then!!

Lureen was pregnant before she saw Jack! I always felt that was so, but for another reason or regard!!

Nobody wants to marry Aquirre?

Hugs!! May all Aguirres and Lureens in the World be happy!!

Offline "Joseph Golden"

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #106 on: January 06, 2008, 09:19:01 am »
One of the reasons he watched the boys could be that he wanted to know why his herder was in base camp and not with the sheep. Why was Jack, who he had hired to be the herder, down at base camp with Ennis? Joe watched until he saw Ennis saddle up and ride up to the sheep. Joe continued watching and saw that Ennis knew how to be a good sheep herder so he was at least relieved to see that. Lets not forget that the "Brokeback" experience for Aguirre was one of financial loss or gain, he should have inspected the performance of his hired hands, in fact I think that he needed to pay unscheduled visits a lot more. His investment in the 1000 sheep was in the hands of the boys.

Was there another type of curiosity on the part of Aguirre? We'll never know.

I don't agree with what you said about him just wacthing them for ten minutes was him cheaking up on his workers. Thats what is written there in plan English, Thats what i think we are meant to believe. Thats the explanation.

But, For ten minutes, A supposable straight men wacthed Two guys have "Anal" sex for Ten minutes

Don't sound right to me......
Don’t lie, don’t try to fool me, Ennis. I know what it means. Jack Twist? Jack Nasty.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #107 on: January 06, 2008, 11:08:47 am »
Thanks melb_boy88!

You sure bring up a good point, melb!

Come ot think of it, it had to take longer than ten minutes for Ennis and Jack to play, plus for Ennis to go back up to where the sheeps where... right?

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!  May gay times of freedom and peace, be joys to all on Earth too!!

Offline ennisjack

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #108 on: January 09, 2008, 11:31:20 am »
  Actually, melb_boy88 and Artiste, are correct. Time just doesn't fit in this. I think Aguirre was getting off on watching which disguted him even more than breathing.  ;D 

  Anyway, about the only thing I would marry Aguirre to would be a shotgun.(With profuse apologizes to the shotgun for demeaning it.)  ;D


EnnisJack
If ya can't fix it, ya gotta stand it; If ya can't stand it, ya gotta fix it; If ya can't do either one then ya either need some serious help or yer screwed

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #109 on: January 09, 2008, 01:56:50 pm »
Thanks ennisjack!

Wow, you sure comment! With a gun? - since you say: Anyway, about the only thing I would marry Aguirre to would be a shotgun.(With profuse apologizes to the shotgun for demeaning it.) 


....
Ennisjack, somehow your comment as such sentence, that makes me laugh.
...

Did you ever think that Aguirre is cool in a way? In the movie!
But also stressed??

On TV news right now, it says that anxiety and stress create more than 30 per cent risk for having a heart attack in men. Do you think that will happen to Aguirre, instead of the shotgun he might see death with??

Dare I ask.

Dare I ask you too: you do not think that he has some good in him? Or you think that he is anti-gay? Or what?

Hugs!

Offline ennisjack

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #110 on: January 09, 2008, 09:43:32 pm »
  Anythng is possible, Artiste. I just didn't like his personality. He kinda came across sorta like L.D. 'I ain't got time for deuces like you, so you better make it goo,' kinda way.

EJ
If ya can't fix it, ya gotta stand it; If ya can't stand it, ya gotta fix it; If ya can't do either one then ya either need some serious help or yer screwed

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #111 on: January 10, 2008, 02:47:08 pm »
  Actually, melb_boy88 and Artiste, are correct. Time just doesn't fit in this. I think Aguirre was getting off on watching which disguted him even more than breathing.  ;D 

  Anyway, about the only thing I would marry Aguirre to would be a shotgun.(With profuse apologizes to the shotgun for demeaning it.)  ;D


EnnisJack

what we know for sure is that:

1) Aguirre voiced unhappiness over the loss of the sheep to predators and the merging of the herds,

2) declined to rehire Jack, voicing his displeasure that Ennis and Jack "wasn't gettin' paid to leave the dogs babysit the sheep while you stemmed the rose." (quoting from the McMurtry-Ossana screenplay)

I'm not sure why Aguirre chose to watch the boys have sex for ten minutes. Maybe he "got off to it". Maybe he wanted to see who would finally go up the mountain to tend to his sheep. Maybe like a lot of people in real life, Aguirre had mixed motives and emotions.

I don't find myself disliking Aguirre as I do L.D. Newsome. Aguirre had his faults, his chief one is that he didn't provide the boys with enough food, and he provided too much whiskey. But he was like a lot of business owners, he just wanted to make a profit and gambled that Ennis and Jack would be the right fit for his goals. And, remember he hired Jack back a second time, and he paid the boys after shovedown. If you look at him from that point of view, maybe he ain't too bad. He's not going to win any tolerance awards here on this web site. But was he really so bad for someone in his business, at that time, in that location?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #112 on: January 10, 2008, 02:49:39 pm »
But was he really so bad for someone in his business, at that time, in that location?

I vote No.


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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #113 on: January 10, 2008, 02:56:26 pm »
Aguirre is certainly no villain, either in the film or in the original story.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #114 on: January 10, 2008, 07:55:41 pm »
Well said brokeplex and others!!

Aguirre is puzzling... in many ways!!

Why was there two instead of just one before, that Aguirre hired??

Or did Aguirre employ two guys also then First year Jack was there?

But...

awaiting your news from you all gay coyboys and cowgirls and others,

hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #115 on: January 11, 2008, 01:23:52 am »
In answer to your question Artiste.

I think Aguirre employed two men that summer before. I don't have any sustantiating quotations, but my gut says two, and the second was probably the guy who met Ennis at the bridge with the food. any thoughts?

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #116 on: January 11, 2008, 02:09:25 am »

Heya,

I thought I'd introduce a slightly new avenue into discussing Aguirre.  It occurs to me that new insights always come up when we look at still shots from the movie carefully.  So, I thought it might be interesting to discuss how Aguirre is physically portrayed.  His clothing, his accessories (his hat, his sunglasses, etc.), the stuff in his office, his car, his horse...  What do these things help us understand about him or his role?


<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3423016-f28.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/thumb/3423015-cf1.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3423013-f93.jpg" border="0" />

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/midsize/3423014-0a9.jpg" border="0" />


I think his trailer office is particularly important.  If other folks have better images of his trailer interior... I'd be really grateful. :) There are so many details in this office and some crucial bits of information that get revealed at different times... especially the binoculars that he hangs on the wall behind him.  Of course, when Jack and Ennis are in his trailer together the binoculars are concealed in their case and when Jack comes back alone the next summer to ask for a job the binoculars are hanging in the same spot, but outside their case.  So, Jack is the only one who ever really understands the extent of Aguirre's ability to watch them... Ennis never even sees those binoculars at the beginning.  If Ennis had more of an idea about Aguirre's interest in watching them... I wonder how different things would have been between Jack and Ennis during their summer.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #117 on: January 11, 2008, 02:31:46 am »
Great idea Amanda.  There's also kind of a metaphorical quality to his character, what he represents.

My understanding is that the name Aguirre translates to "eagle-eyed".  He can be seen as kind of a God figure: bringing the pair together, sending them off on their way, then "casting them out of the Garden" at the end, blocking later re-entry.

I think his physical portrayal in the film may support this — the way he's photographed, positioned and blocked.

He's in a medium shot such as Amanda's first picture relatively rarely; he's usually framed fairly close (maybe to emphasize his gaze). And he views the boys either from above (from the trailer doorway, when he spies on them, and when he speaks to Jack from horseback) or from behind a desk (sitting in judgment).
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 12:49:01 pm by LauraGigs »

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #118 on: January 11, 2008, 10:36:37 am »
I think his trailer office is particularly important.  If other folks have better images of his trailer interior... I'd be really grateful. :) There are so many details in this office and some crucial bits of information that get revealed at different times... especially the binoculars that he hangs on the wall behind him.  Of course, when Jack and Ennis are in his trailer together the binoculars are concealed in their case and when Jack comes back alone the next summer to ask for a job the binoculars are hanging in the same spot, but outside their case.  So, Jack is the only one who ever really understands the extent of Aguirre's ability to watch them... Ennis never even sees those binoculars at the beginning.  If Ennis had more of an idea about Aguirre's interest in watching them... I wonder how different things would have been between Jack and Ennis during their summer.


I agree about the interior of Aguirres office being a very intersting subject. Since this doesn't only relate to Aguirre himself, but also to Ennis and Jack, and also heavily mingles with symbolism in BBM,  I'll start a new thread about it with some interesting pics of the office.


Here's the thread about Aguirre's trailer:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16233.0.html



One pic of Aguirre himself. This is after Jack asked for Ennis and when Aguirre holds his "Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dogs babysit the sheep while you stemmed the rose." speech.




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #119 on: January 11, 2008, 10:47:16 am »
Does anyone have better images of the interior of Aguirre's trailer?  I'd also be interested in seeing a photo of him from the beginning in his office when he has sunglasses sticking out of his jacket pocket. 

Sunglasses are a famous cinematic prop used to suggest the idea of a powerful (or threatening) observer whose eyes are covered so that the object of his gaze does not have the same level of power in returning the gaze or analyzing him directly.  Hitchcock is the most famous example of a director who uses sunglasses in this way (he even uses rearview mirrors in significant ways, as of course, we also see in BBM).

Laura, I think it's absolutely right that Aguirre takes on a very particular allegorical role having to do with authority and with the power of looking/observation.
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #120 on: January 11, 2008, 01:04:04 pm »
Wow, wow!! Wow, that allegorical role!! Wow, those glasses worn by Aguirre!!

Laura, you certainly are right about Aguirre as allegorical is his role!! Much more can be said about that? Awaiting... your news!
......

Atz75, your idea about the glasses reminds me of my own life. I used to wear miroir glasses and I remember hiding my shyness behind those, but according to a friend, I was looking too much intensely at others with those!! Is that so with Aguiirre, do you think?
....

Hugs, hugs!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Bump. :)


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Aguirree has a look ??

Did anyone notice ?


Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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No one talks about Aguirre's look that he does ??

Offline LauraGigs

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He definitely specializes in the look, Artiste.  That's a very good point.  Do you mean this one?




I imagine it's pretty devastating to be on the receiving end of that.

Offline Brown Eyes

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He definitely specializes in the look, Artiste.  That's a very good point.  Do you mean this one?




I imagine it's pretty devastating to be on the receiving end of that.

Yes, that is true.  Aguirre manages to be intimidating through facial expression and tone of voice.  It's interesting that Ennis has this same ability... I'd guess that in his normal, daily life in Riverton he was known as a pretty imposing and intimidating guy.  We, of course, see Ennis differently and with a lot of sympathy and affection.  I think we as the audience are allowed to see through Ennis's masks and intimidating exterior armor in much the way the Jack sees through all of that.

But, I'd wonder in an "intimidating contest" whether most folks would see Aguirre or adult-Ennis as more threatening?

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Front-Ranger

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Yes, that is true.  Aguirre manages to be intimidating through facial expression and tone of voice.  It's interesting that Ennis has this same ability... I'd guess that in his normal, daily life in Riverton he was known as a pretty imposing and intimidating guy.  We, of course, see Ennis differently and with a lot of sympathy and affection.  I think we as the audience are allowed to see through Ennis's masks and intimidating exterior armor in much the way the Jack sees through all of that.

But, I'd wonder in an "intimidating contest" whether most folks would see Aguirre or adult-Ennis as more threatening?
There are many parallels between Ennis and Aguirre...his look (as you mention), his containers, LOL, etc. In fact, Aguirre could be seen as the person Ennis might have become if Jack hadn't happened by...

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Offline mariez

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Yes, that is true.  Aguirre manages to be intimidating through facial expression and tone of voice.  It's interesting that Ennis has this same ability... I'd guess that in his normal, daily life in Riverton he was known as a pretty imposing and intimidating guy.  We, of course, see Ennis differently and with a lot of sympathy and affection.  I think we as the audience are allowed to see through Ennis's masks and intimidating exterior armor in much the way the Jack sees through all of that.

But, I'd wonder in an "intimidating contest" whether most folks would see Aguirre or adult-Ennis as more threatening?

Oh, that's an excellent point, Amanda.  And it has me thinking of something I hadn't given much thought to before - Aguirre's family life.....what he is like outside of that trailer?  Hmmm.....

Marie
The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

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Isn't that a look ?

Offline Artiste

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Looks given by this actors are many and all important ?

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #130 on: November 26, 2008, 11:41:51 pm »
Did we find out if Jack  worked alone that 1st year ?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #131 on: November 28, 2008, 06:12:53 pm »
Did we find out if Jack  worked alone that 1st year ?

I don't know, but my suspicion is that Jack worked with the Basque fellow that delivered the food at the bridge at noon once per week.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #132 on: January 06, 2009, 06:10:52 pm »
I don't know, but my suspicion is that Jack worked with the Basque fellow that delivered the food at the bridge at noon once per week.

I never thought of that! So that's why he said, "It's too early to be sick of beans"!!

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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #133 on: January 06, 2009, 09:03:31 pm »


   I always thought that Aguirre was the society at large.  The people that have the rights to condemn them for their actions, and take away
their livelihood for their transgressions, ie their gayness.  He could spy on them without impunity like a peeping tom, because he was looking
out for the moral stability of "society."
   He could be sure that society was protected from those fags.
   If he had been spying on regular folks, then he might have been called a pervert.  But if it was a gay couple, well!



     Beautiful mind

Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #134 on: January 06, 2009, 09:14:15 pm »

   I always thought that Aguirre was the society at large. 
thatīs how I see it too. His function in the story is to embody the threath to Jack and Ennis.

Offline optom3

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #135 on: January 07, 2009, 11:24:08 am »
I think Aguirre is prejudiced in many ways.He has met Jack before, but presumably not Ennis, yet he treats Ennis with the same disdain as he does Jack.He is rude, curt and scathing to both the boys. I always thought he looked down on the boys as he considered them beneath him in every way.They were presumably less educated than him.
He probably had his suspicions about Jack's sexuality. Yet as with many things in the film and book, he is a study in contradictions.He sees Jack and Ennis on Brokeback, and he does not immediately send them packing. So although he appears to be very prejudiced he shows a degree of tolerance there.
Back down from Brokeback he is rude and abrupt with them both again.
Maybe BBM changes all who venture there, bringing out the "real" them, or the better version of them. Or maybe Aguirre was just the same as Ennis, a gay man in denial.In general we despise those who we see as reflections of ourselves.






Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #136 on: January 07, 2009, 11:29:47 am »
. I always thought he looked down on the boys as he considered them beneath him in every way.They were presumably less educated than him.

And presumably because they are poorer than him. Somehow Aguirre strikes me as the type of man who values money more than education.

Quote
He probably had his suspicions about Jack's sexuality. Yet as with many things in the film and book, he is a study in contradictions.He sees Jack and Ennis on Brokeback, and he does not immediately send them packing.
Maybe he simply values his sheep more than "a couple of queers" and wants the job done above anything else?

Offline optom3

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #137 on: January 07, 2009, 12:40:23 pm »
And presumably because they are poorer than him. Somehow Aguirre strikes me as the type of man who values money more than education.
Maybe he simply values his sheep more than "a couple of queers" and wants the job done above anything else?


I agree with the bit about valuing money over education.
Not sure about the queers bit, as I am fairly sure he knows Jack is gay, he also is less than pleased about the job Jack has done the previous year, so yet another contradiction. If he is more concerned about the wellfare of the sheep, why hire the allegedly incompetent Jack again ? Is there some kind of unspoken, tacit agreement/acceptance which is covered/disguised by his abrupt manner.Or is it simply, no one else applied for the job.
I suspect, that as with the whole film/book, there are multiple interpretations.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #138 on: January 07, 2009, 03:09:08 pm »
I feel fairly confident in saying Jack and Ennis were the only ones applying for the job that summer. There were plenty of "better" places for young men to work, in the oil fields, in agriculture, forestry, etc. in addition to the military or going off to college. Those inclined to work with animals usually chose to work with horses and cattle, sheep being the lowest of the lows (unless you count pigs, goats, or chickens).
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Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #139 on: January 07, 2009, 03:20:03 pm »
There is also the question whether Jack really was incompetent. I have a feeling that Aguirre would have complained no matter how well Jack performed, itīs just the way he is.

Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #140 on: January 07, 2009, 03:22:00 pm »
I feel fairly confident in saying Jack and Ennis were the only ones applying for the job that summer. There were plenty of "better" places for young men to work, in the oil fields, in agriculture, forestry, etc. in addition to the military or going off to college. Those inclined to work with animals usually chose to work with horses and cattle, sheep being the lowest of the lows (unless you count pigs, goats, or chickens).

Thatīs interesting. I wonder why then Jack and Ennis didnīt apply for other jobs? Any theories?

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #141 on: January 07, 2009, 05:13:35 pm »
Thatīs interesting. I wonder why then Jack and Ennis didnīt apply for other jobs? Any theories?

In Jack's case, he knew about the job from having worked it the summer before. And I think he liked the work and the country. It didn't seem like he was making any money on the rodeo circuit, and he might have been unlucky in love and wanting to get away from it all.

For Ennis, I got the feeling that somebody else had motivated him to apply for the job. He didn't seem to have much initiative. The story says both of them were "hungry for any job." Ennis might have also been hungry for independence that would take him away from his brother, who seemed to have a mean streak. Another attraction of the job was that it provided "lodging" which neither man had.

Since the position was located north of Signal, it may be that Alma or her relatives had found out about the job and urged Ennis to apply. Alma was always trying to get Ennis better employment, such as at the power company. It would be somewhat ironic if she had been the impetus for him to go up that mountain with Jack!

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Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #142 on: January 07, 2009, 05:45:55 pm »

For Ennis, I got the feeling that somebody else had motivated him to apply for the job. He didn't seem to have much initiative.


Thanks for an interesting post, Lee. I found this to be particulary poignant. Ennis indeed seems to be happy with any kind of work and it never seems as he has any kind of aspirations in that department. As long as he has food and lodging, heīs content.

I find it more surprising that Jack came back, though. Heīs more driven and "ambitious" than Ennis. My guess is that he at least tried to find a better job, but for some reason ended up back on Brokeback Mountain.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #143 on: January 08, 2009, 10:54:46 am »
Ennis indeed seems to be happy with any kind of work and it never seems as he has any kind of aspirations in that department. As long as he has food and lodging, heīs content.
Can you blame him, given his childhood, not being able to finish school, always a "fifth wheel" in someone else's home, even getting beaten up at night by his brother, and with that cruel miserable excuse of a dad?

I find it more surprising that Jack came back, though. Heīs more driven and "ambitious" than Ennis. My guess is that he at least tried to find a better job, but for some reason ended up back on Brokeback Mountain.
Good point, friend. I never thought of Jack that way before, but you're right. To go back to sheepherding just as rodeo season was getting underway...but you can tell from the state of his truck that he's pretty desperate.
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #144 on: January 08, 2009, 11:36:46 am »
There is also the question whether Jack really was incompetent. I have a feeling that Aguirre would have complained no matter how well Jack performed, itīs just the way he is.


Agreed. Jack can't have been *that* incompetent, otherwise Aguirre wouldn't have hired him again. Of course Aguirre complained, and in his eyes "ranch stiffs never did much of a job". That's just Aguirre being Aguirre.

But he understood that the 25% loss of the previous year hadn't been Jack's fault. That's why he hired two guys the next year; "bad predator loss, nobody near looking after em at night". Jack couldn't watch the sheep 24 hours a day, he had to sleep, take on other chores, get supplies, etc.


As to why the boys applied for the job: they were hungry for any job, like Lee already said. Jack was also "crazy to be somewhere, anywhere else than LF".

I think the fact that the job came with lodging was the determining factor for both of them. Jack didn't care for the kind of work as long as it led him away from LF (and OMT!). And (movie)Ennis didn't have any place to stay. He had lived with his brother until the brother got married a month ago. "No more room for me. That's how come me to end up here."


... both high school dropout country boys with no prospects.... that's why they applied for the job. The world and the better jobs didn't exactly wait for them. :-\

Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #145 on: January 08, 2009, 12:10:16 pm »


But he understood that the 25% loss of the previous year hadn't been Jack's fault. That's why he hired two guys the next year; "bad predator loss, nobody near looking after em at night". Jack couldn't watch the sheep 24 hours a day, he had to sleep, take on other chores, get supplies, etc.

This makes a lot of sense, I think. I have often wondered why many assumed that Jack had company on Brokeback the year before. It seems to me that the whole camp tender/ sheep hearder deal was pretty new to Jack as well.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #146 on: January 08, 2009, 12:15:39 pm »
Good point, friend. I never thought of Jack that way before, but you're right. To go back to sheepherding just as rodeo season was getting underway...but you can tell from the state of his truck that he's pretty desperate.

This is a really good observation...  you're right that Jack is taking up this job just as rodeo season traditionally would be heating up... and it seems this was the case the previous year too for his first year on Brokeback.

It makes me wonder about how much rodeo experience he actually had before he joined the rodeo circuit after his time with Ennis.  We know he somehow earned at least one rodeo belt buckle prior to meeting Ennis. It seems this would have to have happened when he was really very young.  It makes me wonder more about how his life had gone prior to his two Brokeback summers.


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Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #147 on: January 08, 2009, 12:17:25 pm »
Can you blame him, given his childhood, not being able to finish school, always a "fifth wheel" in someone else's home, even getting beaten up at night by his brother, and with that cruel miserable excuse of a dad?

No, I canīt blame him. He never had anyone to give him a sense of self-worth. Ennis never got the chance to become the man he could have been.  :(  I think a lot of things in the story is about that, all the what-could-have-beens. About who Ennis could have been, about who Jack could have been and about what kind of life they could have had together.

Quote
Good point, friend. I never thought of Jack that way before, but you're right. To go back to sheepherding just as rodeo season was getting underway...but you can tell from the state of his truck that he's pretty desperate.
Yeah, he probably needed money fast. And as you and Chrissie point out, the whole lodgin situation probably was an important factor.

Offline mariez

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #148 on: January 08, 2009, 01:33:55 pm »
... both high school dropout country boys with no prospects.... that's why they applied for the job. The world and the better jobs didn't exactly wait for them. :-\

I've always been intrigued by the idea that in the short story AP stresses the ways in which J&E are alike; but in the film, there is more of an effort to highlight the ways in which they are different. 

Marie
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The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

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Re: Joe Aguirre: Links to other threads
« Reply #149 on: January 08, 2009, 02:04:54 pm »
Here are some other interesting threads about Joe Aguirre:

Working for Aguirre started by saucycobblers. Contains an interesting discussion by nakymaton about working/hunting on Forest Service land

Aguirre's office, started by Penthesilea: all about stuff in his office, from his jackalope to his class ring!

Aguirre surname, started by opinionista. Need more posts!

Do you think Jack realizes that Aguirre has seen, started by kd5000: about the big-ass binocs and other things. Needs more posts!

Ennis and Aguirre, started by fernly, comparing/contrasting the two characters. Needs more posts!

Aguirre Visit, started by Ellemeno. Very small thread.

You think that Joe Aguirre was gay, bi... started by Artiste.

Role of Observers, Viewers, the long-shot, Aguirre, and Us (!!!) in BBM? started by atz75, and touches on that creepy sensation of being watched!

Why did Aguirre hire Jack a second time? started by Artiste. This one actually talks mostly about Jack.

Aguirre's Exhaust Fan -- by garycottle, from imdb. An exhaustive treatise on the subject.  

The Aguirre Character, another imdb thread by Clancypantsnasty.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #150 on: January 08, 2009, 03:39:50 pm »
I've always been intrigued by the idea that in the short story AP stresses the ways in which J&E are alike; but in the film, there is more of an effort to highlight the ways in which they are different. 

Marie
I think all of the things that AP points out are in the movie (that they are rough mannered, rough spoken, poor etc), but in the short story their similarities are almost "listed" and therefor they become very prominent. All the same info is in the movie as well, but more spread out. Iīm not sure this was intentionally done, but simply what happens in the process of transforming words into moving pictures.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #151 on: January 08, 2009, 05:02:24 pm »
You have a point there, Monika. The movie and story begin so differently, the one is verbose while the other is austere.

Now, I would like to mention how Annie Proulx describes Aguirre in the story, even though this thread specifically asks about the movie.

I was noticing in the story how Aguirre has "wavy hair...parted down the middle" just like the Red Sea (only his is the color of cigarette ash). Also, in his trailer are venetian blinds (separating the window into light and dark) which are hanging askew so that they "admit a triangle of white light." In other words, a mountain-shaped light. And his hand gestures as he gives instructions to the two boys, moves in the light with a chopping motion, as if he's cutting the mountain in two. He decrees that Ennis, the camp tender, should stay in the light and tend the fire, while Jack is on the QT, staying with the sheep and having no fire, in the dark.

I now see Aguirre, in laying down the law, as more of a Moses type character than a Jehovah one. He not only gives the commandments but he also requires sacrifices. He gives out the tools ( a .30-.30 for Jack, a cheap ticker for Ennis), and commands them to come down from the mountain at the end. He can look through his binoculars at the summit of the mountain and the sweet life there but he can't attain it himself, being trapped in the choky little trailer. Moses escaped the Egyptians and became a shepherd. He led his people around as if they were sheep and lived to be 120 but never was able to enter the Promised Land due to botching the miracle of bringing forth water from stone.


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Offline mariez

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #152 on: January 08, 2009, 05:20:51 pm »
I think all of the things that AP points out are in the movie (that they are rough mannered, rough spoken, poor etc), but in the short story their similarities are almost "listed" and therefor they become very prominent. All the same info is in the movie as well, but more spread out. Iīm not sure this was intentionally done, but simply what happens in the process of transforming words into moving pictures.

Yes, that's true, they are "listed" in a way in the book, and the they are both shown as poor, etc., in the movie.  But, I still think the movie makes an effort to make them "different" in ways the short story does not. 

A few small examples - in the short story they both have trucks at the beginning; in the movie only Jack has truck (albeit a broken down one) and Ennis has to hitchhike. 

In the book, Jack is still driving his old truck and wearing the same beat-up hat at the reunion and Jack tells Ennis that L.D. doesn't let "her" (Lureen) have any of the money so it's a "hard go" for them - in the movie Jack pulls up in a nice, new truck, with "fancy" clothes and some pretty nice jewelry, so it doesn't look like they are having a "hard go" and the differences between their social stations and lifestyles are already evident, and that doesn't happen until much later in the short story.

Also, in the short story, Ennis is not particularly mumbly or close mouthed - he talks as much as Jack does.  In the movie, Jack is very clearly shown to be gregarious and talkative, while Ennis has a hard time putting a few words together.  Anyways, I'm getting way off topic here and I'm not criticizing the movie, just noting the differences, which I think are deliberately made. 

Marie
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The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #153 on: January 08, 2009, 06:05:47 pm »
True about the differences friend. My theory is that Ang Lee played up the differences in the characters because of his ongoing interest in the yin/yang concept of complements.

As far as parallels between the story of Brokeback Mountain and the story of Moses, there are several. While in the desert, Moses saw a burning bush, while Aguirre and Jack referenced a tree struck by lightning that led to the death of 42 sheep. Aguirre is first introduced to us in the story by a description of his desk where there are scribbled-on papers and a Bakelite (A kind of stone) ashtray brimming (brimstone?) with stubs.

Also, when God chose Moses to lead his people out of Egypt, he had Moses practice "transforming his rod into a serpent and inflicting and healing leprosy, and told him that he could also pour river water on dry land to change the water to blood." The leprosy part reminded me of Aguirre's remarks about pneumonia. As for "God had Moses practice transforming his rod into a serpent," no comment!!

Later, Moses got into trouble with God because of a circumcision issue regarding his son. When attempting to get the Pharoah's permission for the Isrealites to leave Egypt, Moses and his brother Aaron caused a plague of frogs to occur. Pharoah insisted he get rid of the frogs, whereupon he made them all die, causing a horrible stench.

Other plagues included gnats and flies, which bothered both Aguirre and Ennis, and diseases to cattle, oxen, goats, sheep, camels, and horses. All of these animals appear in Brokeback Mountain except camels. But wait! Ennis says a coyote is so big it looks like it could eat a camel! Hail and thunder are another of the 10 plagues, and the last one is a lethal epidemic which strikes the first-born male child in each family. Not among the Israelites, though. The plague "pass over" those families, so Uncle Harold did not die after all.

In the end, the Israelites are condemned to wander in the desert until all those who were 20 years old at the beginning of the trip had died. Their children, not them, would be the ones to enter the promised land.


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Offline mariez

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2009, 02:56:32 pm »
True about the differences friend. My theory is that Ang Lee played up the differences in the characters because of his ongoing interest in the yin/yang concept of complements.

Yep, definitely a yin/yang feel - that theory makes a lot of sense! 

Marie

The measure of a country's greatness is its ability to retain compassion in times of crisis         ~~~~~~~~~Thurgood Marshall

The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Sammi

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #155 on: December 08, 2009, 09:07:30 am »
A question about Aguirre - why did he not say anything to the guys about what he had seen until Jack came back the following year?  He was dissapointed in their work, and told them he was not happy with the job they did, saying "ranch stiffs never worth a damn" but he never lets on that he knows until the following year when Jack comes back (alone).  Why did he wait?  If Jack had never happened to come back Aguirre would have never let on to them that he knew?  He seemed pretty mad but kept it to himself while they were both there unloading the sheep.  Did he need time for it to sink in?  I don't understand why he did not say anything about it right then.

Offline southendmd

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #156 on: December 08, 2009, 12:15:31 pm »
That's a good question, Sammi.

If you see Aguirre as a businessman, then it doesn't matter that he knows.  He knows the count isn't what he wanted, and what's done is done. 

In fact, when Jack comes back alone the next year looking for work, Aguirre doesn't mention it then either.  Just "ain't got no work for you".  It isn't until Jack mentions Ennis that he lets on that he knows.  And he does it in a business context--"you wasn't gettin' paid to let the dogs babysit the sheep while you stem the rose".

Offline Sammi

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #157 on: December 08, 2009, 12:48:47 pm »
So he was just upset that they did not return the amount of sheep he wanted, regardless of what they were doing.  He saw it like they were goofing off. 

I wonder what the count they returned was.  The year before he said he had a 25% loss.  I wonder what % it was that year.  We only saw one sheep killed, but just guessing, say if only 10 were lost was that too many?  I wonder if he expected zero loss.  Tell you what, that seems unrealistic even if they were doing their job perfectly.

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #158 on: December 08, 2009, 01:25:43 pm »
I agree with southendmd and others about Aguirre's tolerance of the Ennis/Jack relationship up to a point. I think brokeplex put this best when he said, earlier in this thread, about Aguirre starting to get irritated just at the point when Jack tried to use him as a (LOL) dating service:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15379.msg303580.html#msg303580

Regarding the sheep count, that has always been something that has puzzled me too, Sammi. Particularly when Aguirre wasn't happy with the count at the end of Ennis' and Jack's year together. It seems to me that there would be a higher count which should make Aguirre happy, especially when he noted that "some of those sheep never went up there with you."

Methinks there is something allegorical going on here. I would like to think that Annie Proulx is saying that there are blue-paint-branded sheep and red-paint-branded sheep, and they are all mixed together, and there are all different ways of sorting and accounting for these sheep, but they are ALL SHEEP, so it doesn't matter, particularly after we have all been up on the mountain together, been through lightning storms, hail, the spin cycle, wind and rain, and the paint brands are worn and faint so what does it matter, enniway!
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Offline Monika

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Re: Joe Aguirre: what do you think of this character as portrayed in the movie?
« Reply #159 on: December 08, 2009, 07:49:55 pm »
Personally, I doubt Aguirre would give the boys and credit even if they managed 0% loss. It just seems that he thinks of Ennis and Jack as a pair of deuces from the start, and nothing will ever change that. He has more power and money than them two, he knows it, and is not about to let them ever forget it.