Author Topic: Was Ennis Gay?  (Read 10131 times)

dmmb_Mandy

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Was Ennis Gay?
« on: May 18, 2006, 06:54:10 pm »
There seems to be a lot of debate regarding whether or not Ennis was gay, so I thought it'd be appropriate to start a poll about it! Vote!  :)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2006, 06:57:29 pm »
Good idea, Mandy!

My answer is yes, though very repressed. He probably never would have been with a man if it weren't for Jack.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2006, 08:00:24 am »
Oh, as a person who has had formal college classes in psychology and also done academic style research related to the psychology of sexual orientation, I say that Ennis was not gay . . . But, IMO, his sexual orientation would more than likely be exclusively homosexual.

Unhappy homophobic homosexuals ain't gay; 'cause they ain't happy just being themselves!
Hunh?

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Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2006, 08:01:49 am »
Good idea, Mandy!

My answer is yes, though very repressed. He probably never would have been with a man if it weren't for Jack.
Exactly!

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2006, 04:06:55 pm »
Do you as a woman, know that for certain?

You mean do I know for certain as a woman that he would never have been with a man if it weren't for Jack? No. That's why I said "probably." I don't think I would know that for certain as a man, either.

moremojo

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2006, 06:41:06 pm »
This is a very interesting question to me. I am a gay man myself, and when I first saw Brokeback, back on February 18th, I felt that Ennis was a primarily heterosexual man who somehow formed this extraordinary bond of love with another person who happened to be a man. An important component of this interpretation was the fact that nowhere in the film do we ever have the sense that Ennis is attracted to any other man than Jack. From my experience and observation, this is very unusual for a homosexual man, though it is not impossible.

For the record, my sister, a straight woman, also had this same feeling that Ennis was an otherwise straight person who happened to fall in love with another man. She felt this was one of the most provocative and radical implications of the story, that the heart can lead us in directions that we might never have imagined going.

Over time, I have now come to interpret Ennis as a very repressed homosexual man. There are a number of valuable albeit sometimes subtle clues to support this view. There is a lot of evidence that Ennis is attracted to Jack from very early in their association, quite possibly from the moment he first set eyes on him. By the time of the first tent scene, there is no question that Ennis is attracted to Jack physically as well as emotionally, regardless of the specifics of his sexual identity. But later remarks that Ennis makes in the story, including the "Do you ever think people know?" comment to the "You're the reason I'm this way" rebuke in the lakeside quarrel, strongly suggest that, at least by the time he utters these words, Ennis has come to see himself as homosexual (or at least as a man attracted to another man), however much he may hate to think of himself this way. By story's end, Ennis can certainly no longer doubt Jack's homosexuality, and I think he has essentially come to terms with the realization that theirs was a homosexual relationship, if not necessarily with the conception of himself as specifically homosexual. He certainly loves Jack, a gay man, is conscious of this love, and this suggests to me that he may have accepted a homosexual identity for himself.

slayers_creek_oth

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2006, 07:20:32 pm »
Thats a tough question but I'd have to go with yes...

dmmb_Mandy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2006, 10:01:27 pm »
How much do you reallly know about sexual orientation?

I not only know by academic-style research on my own, I also by knowing real live men and women, that a person can experience all but one of their physiological sexual attractions to one gender their whole lives. I used to be in correspondence with an ordained United Methodist Church minister who told me that he only experienced one sexual attraction toward a woman and he fell in love with her and married her; but, all of his other sexual attractions had been and still were toward men. 

She knows enough about sexual orientation to have and share her own throughts on it. That doesn't make her right or wrong, nor does it make you right or wrong. People interpret other people and things differently based on their own experiences and observations of others. I believe that Ennis was indeed gay. Do I know for certain? Of course not. It's just my interpretation based on how I saw the film and how I analyzed the bits of his character/personality shown in the film. Maybe he masturbated thinking of Clint Eastwood as a teenager, who knows? That certainly would have been an interesting deleted scene  ;D
« Last Edit: May 20, 2006, 01:26:35 pm by dmmb_Mandy »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2006, 12:14:02 am »
She knows enough about sexual orientation to have and share her own throughts on it. That doesn't make her right or wrong, nor does it make you right or wrong.

Thanks, Mandy. Joe, about all I know about sexual orientation is what I've experienced in myself or observed in others. But I believe the part of my answer you're questioning (because, if I understand correctly, don't we agree that Ennis is homosexual? I know you dispute the word "gay") is whether he would have been with other men if not for Jack. You don't need a PhD in sexual orientationology to have an opinion about that -- that has more to do with general character reading. And as Mandy says, every viewer is equally qualified to draw his or her own conclusions about that.


dmmb_Mandy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2006, 01:29:25 pm »
Teasing here: "masterbated?" Don't you mean masturbated? I have seen the word spelled "masterbaited," too. My brain injury does cause my fingers to misspell words at times or even omit words.

To "bate" means to "moderate, restrain." So, would "masterbate" mean one was able to "master not masturbating so much" or to "master one's self with so much restraint that one abstained from masturbating.

I do indeed know the difference between "masterbate" and "masturbate". T'was just a typo.

Offline isabelle

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 05:50:01 pm »
Maybe he masturbated thinking of Clint Eastwood as a teenager, who knows? That certainly would have been an interesting deleted scene  ;D

LOL, good one Mandy, however you spell that word.
I voted yes too. Have no phD in psychology, or anything, either, but he is so manly I'm not surprised he had to fall in (real) love with a man.
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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 09:11:10 pm »
Quote
Oh, as a person who has had formal college classes in psychology and also done academic style research related to the psychology of sexual orientation, I say that Ennis was not gay . . . But, IMO, his sexual orientation would more than likely be exclusively homosexual.

Unhappy homophobic homosexuals ain't gay; 'cause they ain't happy just being themselves!


Has anyone here ever asked a psychiatrist or a psychologist, "Do you think closeted homosexuals should be called 'gay'?"

Offline David

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2006, 04:43:02 pm »
Ennis is Gay.     Just because a guy is masculine and has sex with women doesn't mean he is bisexual or "environmentally changed" to think he was Gay.

I am very masculine.   I had no Gay influences growing up.   I always thought some of my male classmates were attractive.   I didn't feel any desire to date girls, but eventually did to "conform" to what was expected.   Sure, Gay guys CAN perform sexual acts with girls.  Eventually I realized that I had to be myself.   But as Ennis found out, he wanted Jack, not Alma.     Hell, Ennis didn't want anyone but Jack, male or female.   That is Love.

If Ennis was Bisexual, he'd be nailing cute girls in town like cassie with no regrets.   But I think Ennis only dated Cassie to keep his "Straight" mask on.    Thats why after the big fight with Jack, he knew it was pointless to keep leading her on.    Even Ennis knew by then that he was Gay.

Offline twistedude

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2006, 02:39:28 am »
o, Ennis wasn't gay , and I'm not a woman.
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slayers_creek_oth

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2006, 12:31:51 pm »
o, Ennis wasn't gay , and I'm not a woman.

Really?  LOL JK

Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2006, 02:29:47 pm »
It's an interesting, one that I've seen elsewhere, I think even in the Safe Haven section.  To me it comes down to what the definition of gay is, and I mean gay versus homosexual.  I think of a homo as someone who is attracted to their own sex.  But being gay to me is an identity that you take on, not one that is put on you because of who you sleep with. 

But I also understand how many, probably most, people use the two interchangeably. If you asked Ennis if he was gay, he might wanna slug you and deny it.  At some point in his life maybe he became more accepting of his sexuality and even started to come out.  But I get how gay is used as shorthand.  I just don't always agree that a man to a woman who has sex with men is automatically 'gay'. 

Juan
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Offline David

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2006, 02:36:11 pm »
Then perhaps it can be said that there is a big difference in "being Gay" and "Acting Gay".

I am not particularly fond of guys who are too flamboyant.  I want a Man, not some swishy stereotype.     LOL

My apologies to any swishy, flamboyant guys on this board.    :-X


Offline JCinNYC2006

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2006, 02:46:35 pm »
LOL, well that's a different issue.  It's funny, I have some friends who are queens who I enjoy until they become waaaay bitchy.  But I'm more put off by muscle boys who are queeny as well.  Go figure.

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tiawahcowboy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2006, 05:57:40 pm »
In the past 20 plus years, I have known quite a few out-of-the-closet homosexual men who were also openly gay.

Most of them were just comfortable being themselves and they did not "act gay," all the while their body language and speech patterns were spread out between being almost hyper-masculine and rather nelly queens.

But, even the most effeminate types did not feel that they had to put on makeup or dress like women to be gay.

Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2006, 11:58:39 am »
Quote
This is a very interesting question to me. I am a gay man myself, and when I first saw Brokeback, back on February 18th, I felt that Ennis was a primarily heterosexual man who somehow formed this extraordinary bond of love with another person who happened to be a man. An important component of this interpretation was the fact that nowhere in the film do we ever have the sense that Ennis is attracted to any other man than Jack. From my experience and observation, this is very unusual for a homosexual man, though it is not impossible.

For the record, my sister, a straight woman, also had this same feeling that Ennis was an otherwise straight person who happened to fall in love with another man. She felt this was one of the most provocative and radical implications of the story, that the heart can lead us in directions that we might never have imagined going.

Over time, I have now come to interpret Ennis as a very repressed homosexual man. There are a number of valuable albeit sometimes subtle clues to support this view. There is a lot of evidence that Ennis is attracted to Jack from very early in their association, quite possibly from the moment he first set eyes on him. By the time of the first tent scene, there is no question that Ennis is attracted to Jack physically as well as emotionally, regardless of the specifics of his sexual identity. But later remarks that Ennis makes in the story, including the "Do you ever think people know?" comment to the "You're the reason I'm this way" rebuke in the lakeside quarrel, strongly suggest that, at least by the time he utters these words, Ennis has come to see himself as homosexual (or at least as a man attracted to another man), however much he may hate to think of himself this way. By story's end, Ennis can certainly no longer doubt Jack's homosexuality, and I think he has essentially come to terms with the realization that theirs was a homosexual relationship, if not necessarily with the conception of himself as specifically homosexual. He certainly loves Jack, a gay man, is conscious of this love, and this suggests to me that he may have accepted a homosexual identity for himself.

I really like this interpretation. I think Ennis was gay, although I cannot be sure (I love the brilliant ambiguity), and I think over time, he eventually came to accept it (even if it was still his little secret).
If you'd just realize what I just realized then we'd be perfect for each other and we'd never have to wonder if we missed out on each other now
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2006, 03:13:40 am »
I am certain Ennis was gay. The infamous "closet scene" at the end only reinforced this.

That was  true love.
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Offline Katie77

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2006, 02:39:43 am »
I voted 'bi' because i think he was struggling to identify what he was.......

But as an observer, I think he looked more comfortable making love with a bloke than he did with a lady.......

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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline twistedude

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2006, 03:06:12 am »
Poor lady! GIMMIE A BREAK...
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline JT

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2006, 12:55:26 pm »
I think Ennis is a deeply closeted gay.  He's only at peace with himself when he with Jack (a man).

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2006, 01:35:58 pm »
After all this time...I don't know.  I'm leaning heavily toward the repressed gay, but in the story/movie you get the biggest impression that even Ennis isn't sure.

He loves Jack, that's beyond doubt, but allowed himself to go into male/female relationships as well, in the story he admits he likes sex with women, but in the movie, had Cassie not been aggressive, it doesn't look like Ennis would have gone with her or was never trolling for women.

But of course you also get the impression Ennis wouldn't have gone after any man either.

However, when someone is deeply in love, sometimes they don't even look at another person that way because they don't want to.

It seems Ennis has a healthy sex life with and without Jack, but it also appears he can go without sex for long periods of time without a problem.

Could he been one of those people who describe themselves as 'asexual'?  People who can take or leave sex?

Ennis gay or not?  I can't say with any certainty but Proulx and Lee were certain that he was, so that settles that.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2006, 08:53:24 pm »
I would say that Ennis is indeed gay.  I even believe his father thought so, thus the trip to view the mutilated corpse of a gay rancher, in order to "scare" the gay tendency away. 

moremojo

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2006, 09:22:11 pm »
I would say that Ennis is indeed gay.  I even believe his father thought so, thus the trip to view the mutilated corpse of a gay rancher, in order to "scare" the gay tendency away. 
Keep in mind that the father takes both Ennis and his older brother K.E. to view Earl's corpse. This makes his motivation more complex than if he had chosen to take only one of the boys to the gruesome scene. I have felt that the father was showing his sons the body to reinforce the idea that this is what "queers" deserved, of what they themselves should visit upon such men should they encounter them in the course of their lives. As for extinguishing any "soft" or "sissy" tendencies in the boys, given the harsh, macho environment in which they were raised, that "education" probably began from the moment they exited their mother's womb.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2006, 01:34:31 am »
I have felt that the father was showing his sons the body to reinforce the idea that this is what "queers" deserved, of what they themselves should visit upon such men should they encounter them in the course of their lives. As for extinguishing any "soft" or "sissy" tendencies in the boys, given the harsh, macho environment in which they were raised, that "education" probably began from the moment they exited their mother's womb.

It is even more frightening when I realize that there are still plenty of people in this country who still think like that.

Things have changed very little in some parts of our country, and the world.

This makes me think of something else I use to hear people say all the time: "The more things change, the more they stay the same".   :(
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Offline SFEnnisSF

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2006, 05:03:45 pm »
I would say that Ennis is indeed gay.  I even believe his father thought so, thus the trip to view the mutilated corpse of a gay rancher, in order to "scare" the gay tendency away. 

Oooh interesting theory!  Good one.

And if you're going to take one boy to see the corpse, mind as well take both brothers...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 05:06:48 pm by sfericsf »

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2007, 03:51:33 am »


     I have always thought he was bi.. He really had no aversions to gay, other than the fears
his own father had put into him.  He had decided he liked women ok, and he found one that
liked him ok... and probably would have continued his life in a rather ho hum situation, if not for
having met jack..Jack however taught him that love and sex were intertwined.  NOt just a by-product of a marriage.  From then on, he knew what he wanted. 
     He however still had the fear,  all that, would mean..Plus he didnt want to leave his children, orphaned, as he had been..I think he then decided to make the best of the unfortunate situation.  To carry on an affair, and just keep on keeping on...No satisfaction for anyone.  But that is what kind of a decision a passive aggressive person would tend to choose.  It would seem like the logically simple answer...However as we all know,,,it just doesnt work out that way in the end...He then was set on a path, that he neither could or would detour from.
     He then found he was too late smart..that he was gay, and he had obstructed his entire
life and Jacks as well.  And possibly hastened the very thing he was so afraid of. The coming of the "tire irons."
   im not a male and im not gay, or lesbian either, its just my observation of human nature.
                                                                                              janice



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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #30 on: March 06, 2007, 04:02:52 am »

     I have always thought he was bi.. He really had no aversions to gay, other than the fears
his own father had put into him.  He had decided he liked women ok, and he found one that
liked him ok... and probably would have continued his life in a rather ho hum situation, if not for
having met jack..Jack however taught him that love and sex were intertwined.  NOt just a by-product of a marriage.  From then on, he knew what he wanted. 
     He however still had the fear,  all that, would mean..Plus he didnt want to leave his children, orphaned, as he had been..I think he then decided to make the best of the unfortunate situation.  To carry on an affair, and just keep on keeping on...No satisfaction for anyone.  But that is what kind of a decision a passive aggressive person would tend to choose.  It would seem like the logically simple answer...However as we all know,,,it just doesnt work out that way in the end...He then was set on a path, that he neither could or would detour from.
     He then found he was too late smart..that he was gay, and he had obstructed his entire
life and Jacks as well.  And possibly hastened the very thing he was so afraid of. The coming of the "tire irons."
   im not a male and im not gay, or lesbian either, its just my observation of human nature.
                                                                                              janice

Those are great observations Janice!  :D

But can society actually dictate one's sexuality? Certainly one can conform if necessary. But can it actually change or alter the intrinsic nature or sexual identity of an individual? I think Ennis conformed. Not be cause he wanted to, but because he had to. This is a big difference. Unfortunately, many gay people are still doing this today, in the 21st century. We conform to survive. Not because we want to, but because we have to. Certainly this would have been true in 1960's Wyoming. Societal pressure can be an awesome yoke to bear for certain groups; gays included.

Great post Janice!  :D
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Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2008, 08:24:12 pm »
Wow!

Quote
  But can society actually dictate one's sexuality? Certainly one can conform if necessary. But can it actually change or alter the intrinsic nature or sexual identity of an individual? I think Ennis conformed. Not be cause he wanted to, but because he had to. This is a big difference. Unfortunately, many gay people are still doing this today, in the 21st century. We conform to survive. Not because we want to, but because we have to. Certainly this would have been true in 1960's Wyoming. Societal pressure can be an awesome yoke to bear for certain groups; gays included.

 

.........

Wow, wow... too to all others here who brought such great thoughts!

Au revoir,
take care,
hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 06:33:46 pm »
Emotionally Ennis was gay.

Sexually he functioned as a bi because of the strictures of his society, but I don't think in defining Ennis's character that should mean a great deal.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 07:15:56 pm »
As acted by Heath, Ennis was probably or possibly NOT gay!

Could that be considered so?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 10:36:08 pm »
As acted by Heath, Ennis was probably or possibly NOT gay!

Could that be considered so?

Hugs!

he was not gay?

 so he was just bored with Alma when he agreed to meet with Jack after 4 years? sorry that just doesn't make sense to me. if he wasn't gay, and his sex with Jack on the mountain was just for convenience, then after 4 years he would have had no interest in Jack.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2008, 10:40:30 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say:
he was not gay?

 so he was just bored with Alma when he agreed to meet with Jack after 4 years? sorry that just doesn't make sense to me. if he wasn't gay, and his sex with Jack on the mountain was just for convenience, then after 4 years he would have had no interest in Jack. 
 
 
........

May I say that possibly Ennis can be viewed as straight, since some heterosexual men do have sex with another man (who is straight or gay), and do you think so, or seen that??

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2008, 10:43:44 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say:
he was not gay?

 so he was just bored with Alma when he agreed to meet with Jack after 4 years? sorry that just doesn't make sense to me. if he wasn't gay, and his sex with Jack on the mountain was just for convenience, then after 4 years he would have had no interest in Jack. 
 
 
........

May I say that possibly Ennis can be viewed as straight, since some heterosexual men do have sex with another man (who is straight or gay), and do you think so, or seen that??

Hugs!
sure but they don't "reconnect" after "four fuckin' years" unless they are gay. Ennis had to feel something beyond the need for a quicky with Jack. That means he was gay, he was not straight, and his bisexuality was just for appearances.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2008, 10:51:44 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

I would like to think like you: that Ennis is gay!
...
You replied to my post:
sure but they don't "reconnect" after "four fuckin' years" unless they are gay. Ennis had to feel something beyond the need for a quicky with Jack. That means he was gay, he was not straight, and his bisexuality was just for appearances. 
 
 
............

And may I reply: that is just it: Ennis wanted more but he did slave himself to appearances!!
He thought maybe too much that society (some in it) would kill him if ever he considered himself gay?
So, he did ONLY appearances with Jack, once in a while!! - That way, he is straight!

Gay wise, Ennis is something else?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 11:03:20 pm »
I think initially he was sexually naieve,
Then he very reluctantly realises he could be gay,he is attracted to Jack.In TS2 he goes to Jack.
Then he realises he is in love and gay,as per the alley scene after comming down from the mountain.
He quashes those feelings, but interestingly ,although he conforms by marrying,he,sorry no other way to put this,always takes Alma from behind.He also tells her he would be quite happy to leave her alone if she doesn't want any more kids.
He obviously does not want sex with her, just to have sex.
He may never be happy with the fact that he is gay,but I still think he none the less knows it.That i s what makes it so gut wrenching for me.Sort of in another time, another era, another place,it may all have been different.
The 2 most poignant sentences in the book for me is when they are in the motel,and Ennis says to Jack,"Took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't a let you out a my sights.Too late by then by a long long while"
That is said by a man in love.In love with another man,which I think means gay.
He is trapped by convention ,prejudice,and his own fears, into a life that is untrue to his feelings and sexual inclination.But it does not mean those inclinations do not represent the man.
In much the same way some men are trapped in mens bodies and vice versa.


Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 11:10:41 pm »
Thanks optom!

Very, very well detailed and said!!
......

However, I have known some men who have sex with me, often, and never did consider themselves gay!

What about those?

You can answer and others can too,

hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2008, 11:13:41 am »
Thanks optom!

Very, very well detailed and said!!
......

However, I have known some men who have sex with me, often, and never did consider themselves gay!

What about those?

You can answer and others can too,

hugs!

Plenty of those in the English public school system.!!!
I know some men have a very high sex drive and also a desire to experience as much variety as possible within certain constraints.I do not think having gay sex as part of an experience to explore every avenue,per se makes you gay.Plenty of men and women are very adventurous when it comes to sex,but are still fundamentally "straight".I know of one man who has had sex with another man,to test the waters.He has indulged virtually his every whim with regards sex,but is fundamentally straight.
I do think Ennis was gay,it was not just sex.There was a whole and complete realtionship with Jack.
I believe our sexuality as humans is defined by who ever we form a complete bond with.That means sex and love in the same package.I love some of my girlfriends and would do anything for them,but have no desire to have sex with them.Equally I have had sex without love.
When the 2 come together,and remain over time,as happened with Ennis and Jack,therein lies your sexuality.Whether you can accept it,is another matter.

We are all complex beings and the urge to have sex for some is very strong,in cases strong enough at times for it not to matter who the person is.Also for many the urge to push boundaries and experiment is very strong.That goes for sex and of course drugs.We may know that what we are doing is not necessarily right for us,but still we do it.It is like a constant search for the next thrill,invariably because there is something lacking in us or in our lives.
I do not see that with Ennis .I see a deeply repressed gay man who inspite of everything,falls catastrophically in love with another man.He never finds that love with any of the women.It is a bond which only comes when you allow yourself to be who you truly are.
The tragedy for Ennis, is deep down I believe he knows where his sexuality lies,he knows he loves Jack,he knows that he is happiest and most at peace when he is with Jack.He knows from the minute they come down from BBM. He cannot allow himself to be that person all the time though.So instead he lets himself have brief snatches of true happiness and love.
Then goes back,almost as if some form of punishment or attonement,to a life he knows will never fulfill him.He needs no church/god to punish him,he does it for himself, by denying himself.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2008, 12:31:01 pm »
Thanks optom!

You say:
The tragedy for Ennis, is deep down I believe he knows where his sexuality lies,he knows he loves Jack,he knows that he is happiest and most at peace when he is with Jack.He knows from the minute they come down from BBM. He cannot allow himself to be that person all the time though.So instead he lets himself have brief snatches of true happiness and love.
Then goes back,almost as if some form of punishment or attonement,to a life he knows will never fulfill him.He needs no church/god to punish him,he does it for himself, by denying himself.
 
 
.........

Fiona: you sure say much, which are great ideas and ideal there!! I must re-read that often... since that touches me, and more than once!!

You must be medical doctor? As well as a writer! Wow, wow!


Merveilleux! Yes:Marvelous!

Would Ennis go live with Jack, do you think? Does anyone think that?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline optom3

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2008, 01:18:57 pm »
Hi Artiste,
lovely tomatoes.One of my favourite snacks is tomatoes thinly sliced on whole grain toast,with a bit of salt and pepper.Can you read my mind????
I am not a medical doctor,I am doctor of optometry.However the amount of therapy/psychiatrists/psychologists I have seen in my life,either for myself or son.I might as well be!!!!!
Also when I was doing Optometry I took psychology as a minor.There is a lot of psychology involved in sight would you believe.Understanding what the patient is really trying to tell you.The grief process when some one loses their sight.
The head aches which are nothing to do with needing specs,and everything to do with stress.There is even a condition called hysterical blindness.The patient is so stressed that they simply refuse to see.Strange but true.
Children who pretend to have a vision problem,to seek attention from their parents,or to cover up some other underlying problem such as bullying.The human eye is a truly fascinating thing,literally in some cases the window to the soul!!!!
Also you can detect so many other diseases from the eye,diabetes,hiv/aids,high b.p and lots more,that you really do need to have some insight into psychology to be able to communicate with the patient.
You have to refer when you see something wrong,and you have to be able to judge how to communicate that to the patient.Do you tell them the whole picture,or edited high lights.I will stop now before I bore you,but it is a subject that obviously I love.
I always used to say,10 mins. to do an eye exam,20 nins to analyse the patient.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2008, 02:47:32 pm »
Hi Fiona!

Before I forget, the system of Phillip on Bettermost or mine via my compuyor, or something else, is NOT allowing me to-day to add pics (and at times posts too); so I am asking you if you know the plant above? Maybe ask your son if he does? I asked you in your OTHER thread (about your son gardening), but could NOT add it!
............

Your post is so wonderful!!

You say:
Also you can detect so many other diseases from the eye,diabetes,hiv/aids,high b.p and lots more,that you really do need to have some insight into psychology to be able to communicate with the patient.
..........

I wish you can examen my eyes! You angel!

You and I, as I am an artist painter, have things in common! I use my eyes and even create illusions in my paintings!

You know what mind's eye is ??

My straight brother is an optician, an excellent one; only he did ever made me glasses which I could see with! No others ever did succeed! I sure wish he was like you, since he has your talent too!!
........

Back to Ennis being gay or not, your posts on that are too educational!! I like them! Maybe Ennis... is still a puzzle, is he gay or not, when is he?? Etc.;

au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Mandy21

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #44 on: March 19, 2008, 12:39:22 pm »
Hey Fiona, I agree totally with everything you said above -- "repressed", "gay".

You do indeed sound like you love your work -- have you been allowed to work here in the states?  Did you ever see the HBO movie "Hysterical Blindness" with Uma Thurman and Juliette Lewis?  Very good, if you get a chance to rent.

Your post reminds me I need to go get new glasses.  I'm sure bifocals would be in order at age 42.  Must do something about that.
Dawn is coming,
Open your eyes...

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #45 on: March 19, 2008, 12:47:47 pm »
Thanks optom!

You say:
Also you can detect so many other diseases from the eye,diabetes,hiv/aids,high b.p and lots more,
.......

Optom:
therefore, could you have maybe told us about Heath the actor? May I ask you to guess?
..........

Optom: Do you think that even if Ennis was gay or not, if you had examined him for his eyes, would you think that he had or would have maybe hiv/aids? Dare I ask?? !!

Au revoir,
hugs!      Of course,  others can reply too about these two questions!

Offline optom3

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #46 on: March 20, 2008, 10:25:59 am »
Thanks optom!

You say:
Also you can detect so many other diseases from the eye,diabetes,hiv/aids,high b.p and lots more,
.......

Optom:
therefore, could you have maybe told us about Heath the actor? May I ask you to guess?
..........

Optom: Do you think that even if Ennis was gay or not, if you had examined him for his eyes, would you think that he had or would have maybe hiv/aids? Dare I ask?? !!

Au revoir,
hugs!      Of course,  others can reply too about these two questions!

Wow you ask a lot!!!!!
You can tell drug use by checking the pupils.That includes Rx drugs as well. If anyone has Aids it affects a part of the eye called the retina and you get abnormal patches on it.Only found with AIDS.
Also you can get karposis sarcoma on the eye.Very painful.I do not think AIDSwas around then though was it.
I have heard of minds eye,and do,truly believe the eyes are the window to the soul.I check my kids to see if they are lying to me ,because invariably when you lie,your pupil dilates.
Here is a tip for you,if someone is attracted to you,their pupils will dilate.!!!!!I do not believe in iridology which is like palm reading,but looking at the iris not the hands.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #47 on: March 20, 2008, 06:41:34 pm »
Thanks very much Fiona!

Your post is really instructive, yes educational for me!

Be assured that I will re-read it many times and used you hints!!
...........
You say:
If anyone has Aids it affects a part of the eye called the retina and you get abnormal patches on it.Only found with AIDS.
.........

I did NOT know that. I must ask if my doctor knows it!
So this could tell me or someone else, and maybe you if I have HIV/AIDS? Can this be a tool to pre-tell if one is so before severity develops ?

You have pic(s) of that maybe??
................

Does HIV/AIDS attack the eye(s) one or BOTH same time??
...............

That for now... when you can and want to answer.

Can you tell if the actors Heath and Jake have such HIV eyes? Or something else, in the BM movie??
.........

Do you think that Ennis and/or Jack would have HIV eyes?? When? How long is it before that happens??

Ennis is gay man to some, not to others. So the question... is still a question to you?

Keep care, au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2008, 05:27:11 pm »
Is this still a question ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2008, 08:12:37 am »
I am still puzzled by this question.

Are you too ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2008, 09:55:34 am »
Guest, if you are interested in posting about this interesting question, you need to be a member... I am told.

Bienvenue, that's welcome !

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #51 on: July 31, 2008, 01:49:02 pm »
There are 49 people who have voted that they thought Ennis was gay. That seems pretty definitive for me! Technically, I suppose he was bisexual, however, I've always thought orientation should  be according to natural attraction, not just function. Just because he could father a child didn't mean he was not gay. Also, many bisexual people, especially men, are fine with the gay label (although there are plenty of gays who do not want to accept bisexuals as one of their own). Even many lesbians are fine with calling themselves gay.

Too much to do. . .I don't have time to get old!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #52 on: August 09, 2008, 07:11:51 pm »
More ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2008, 06:55:11 pm »
Yes, the but is did he know that he was gay?

Offline Monika

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #54 on: December 08, 2008, 08:01:51 am »
I donīt remember how I voted, but I think I might have voted "bi". However, I must say that when I watch the movie now I definately think he is gay.
To a large extent because  itīs vital to the story that he is. The story is after all about, according to AP, a homophobic society and how that affects people. If Ennis wasnīt gay...then what would be the point?

Thinking of Ennis as bi, for me, deminishes the point of the story somehow, and therefor I prefer to think of him as gay.

But then again, maybe it doesnīt matter. Gay or not, he was in love with a man and spent his life feeling unhappy because he couldnīt have the one person in the world he wanted.

But wheter he knew he was gay or not is a hard one. At least if we are talking pre-Jack. Perhaps he had felt an attraction towards men before but ignored it, or perhaps he hadnīt seen it as even a possiblity and therefor never even let himself thought about it. If you donīt event think itīs a possiblity to love a member of the same sex in that way, maybe you donīt even recognise your feelings for what they are.




Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #55 on: December 08, 2008, 02:27:32 pm »
Merci beaucoup  buffymon !

By your post, you made me smile twice already, happily !!

And your information is very, very interesting !

So, you see now that your mind changes when you re-see the Brokeback Mountain movie ?


With next viewings, you might also change about others too ?

Au revoir,
hugs! You really excite me with this post of yours !

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2008, 06:33:19 am »
I donīt remember how I voted, but I think I might have voted "bi".




Monika, you can tell how you voted by which response is bolded.

Offline Monika

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2008, 07:14:52 am »

Monika, you can tell how you voted by which response is bolded.
ahhh...I did vote "yes".  :laugh:

thanks for the info!

Offline Artiste

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Re: Was Ennis Gay?
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2008, 07:57:56 pm »
Was Ennis Gay? - isn't that a good question, but most straights will not answer ?