Author Topic: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments  (Read 116785 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #190 on: August 03, 2006, 10:48:10 am »
Well, it sounds like you made a good effort, Chris. And your subjects' reactions seem to match the reactions of people on this board -- we all continue to disagree despite double or even triple-digit viewings.

Everyone seemed to be the most sure that there was definitely no "F*ck Me", we could only pick up what we presume were breathing, grunts (etc), their clothing moving, belt buckles, and the sounds associated with their changing postures.  We couldn't hear anything that sounded like words at all.

I pretty much agree with this. I listened yesterday on my computer with the volume cranked and the speakers pressed to my ears and couldn't hear anything beyond gasps or whatever. Some of those gasps COULD say "f*ck me" -- I can't absolutely rule that out -- but to my ears they could just as easily be gasps. There was nothing that makes them sound more like "f*ck me" than like anything else. And the fact that it seems slightly unlikely that he would say that pushes me a bit in the other direction.

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Skip to the "I love you" scene.  This was dismissed by the others quite quickly as non-existent, but I encouraged them to look and listen carefully because Ennis' mouth clearly moves as if to say several words just as he lifts the sleave of the shirts.  However, my sister pointed out that the clearest sound during that time was Ennis' breathing, and at the exact moment of mouth movement we could clearly hear an exhalation.

I can certainly understand this reaction. But to my ears, the sound he makes when his mouth moves resembles words -- admittedly very indistinct ones. I don't hear him breathing at other times during the scene except maybe when he smells the shirts (admittedly, I haven't watched it lately). To me, those three one-syllable vocalizations stand out among other sounds he makes, implying that they are actual words, and are too short and close together to sound like exhalations.

On the likelihood scale, "I love you" sounds improbable at first, but actually far less so, once you get used to the idea, than "fuck me." Though the fact that people -- including me -- came to see/hear it who previously didn't even want to believe it was there is telling. As contrast, I've seen enough testimony on behalf of "fuck me" that I'm perfectly open to the idea, but still can't hear it. When I first noticed "I love you," I was scornful of the idea, yet heard it anyway.

But your experiment and your friends' experience are interesting. I think maybe this will just be one of those things that dfferent viewers will always see in different ways, no matter how many times they watch it. (Though I have seen people switch sides.)

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Seemingly easier to hear was the "sorry" / "s'alright".  Much more debate was generated though with two camps forming.  The first heard one "sorry" followed by two "s'alrights", while the second that it was three "s'alrights" citing no mouth movements from Ennis as proof (given that it only makes sense for Ennis to say this).  But we've heard these arguments before, so it's not surprising that this group would be no different.

This I can completely understand. I'm in both camps myself, my opinion changing from one viewing to the next. I also occasionally step into the "Ennis says 'sorry'" camp. It's true his lips don't move, but Jack's don't move much either, and it is possible to whisper that without moving your mouth. But that's partly wishful thinking on my part, because that would be my preferred scenario.

Anyway, thanks for conducting this experiment, Chris! Well done. And it sounds like you have very fun friends who are willing to take the time to play along.  :D

Offline Daphne7661

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #191 on: August 03, 2006, 01:25:30 pm »
I'm not really sure why, but I feel as though my explanation of why Jack would be the one saying "I'm Sorry" in TS2, is not getting its full credit.  It seems as though everyone is so busy trying to prove who said it, that they are closing their minds as to why (I believe) it was said in the first place.

Not to be duplicative, but I am posting here once again my reasons for believing it was Jack who said "I'm Sorry" in TS2.

I ask only that those of you who believe it was Ennis, and those of you who don't even hear it, will keep an open mind and consider my take on it upon your next viewing.

Thanks.


Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him.  He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands.  This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right.  It's all right.  Lie Back.  C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene.  I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all.  There are many other parts where they are wrong.
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #192 on: August 03, 2006, 01:31:16 pm »
Thank U for repeating that. I enjoyed reading it the first time, as well as now. I love the part about Ennis "leaning" into Jack. I've seen Heath do that in his on-screen kisses on several movies. He just closes his eyes and leans forward until contact with the other face is made. No pursing or anything. Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #193 on: August 03, 2006, 01:44:14 pm »
Daphne, I do give credit to your explanation. If Jack is the one saying sorry -- and if anyone says it, it's probably him -- that makes perfect sense. I'd just like to have Ennis be the one saying sorry, for being so brusque earlier.

He just closes his eyes and leans forward until contact with the other face is made.

LOL, Lee, perfect description. Jake may have a different approach, but this method would be fine by me!  ;)

Offline Daphne7661

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #194 on: August 03, 2006, 02:20:43 pm »
Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.

Heath said Jake was a good kisser?  Wow!!!  I, myself, always thought Jake was a GREAT kisser, just by watching him, but, with Heath saying so himself, that's a good enough confirmation for me.

And thanks for the words of support on my TS2/I'm Sorry explanation....

I appreciate it.

...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...

Offline dly64

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #195 on: August 03, 2006, 02:50:36 pm »
Now, Jake, that's another story. Even Heath said Jake was a good kisser.


LOL, Lee, perfect description. Jake may have a different approach, but this method would be fine by me!  ;)


Heath said Jake was a good kisser?  Wow!!!  I, myself, always thought Jake was a GREAT kisser, just by watching him, but, with Heath saying so himself, that's a good enough confirmation for me.

Mark this moment ... it may be the only time that we are all in 100% agreement!  ;D
Diane

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Offline 2robots4u

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #196 on: August 03, 2006, 06:19:38 pm »
I also agree that this moment is a milestone, regarding who said what, etc., and I totally agree with Daphne's assessment of TS2.

Now, as to her comments about not trusting subtitles and how they are wrong:  I sat down last week to analyze the subtitles.  I closed every window and door in my condo to get as much silence as possible, set the DVD to play both sound and subtitles, and watch it, intently and uninterrupted, 2 complete times.  I compared what I heard to what I read, replaying often to insure I heard/saw correctly.  In the entire dialogue, I found only 3 instances where there wa a difference.

  1.  Spoken by Ennis:  Alma and me, we'll be gettin' married...
       Subtitle:              Alma and me, we're gonna git maried....

  2.  Spoken by Jack:  Friend, that's more words....
       Subtitle:            Man, that's more words...

  3.  Spoken by Alma:  Hey, Ennis.  You remember somebody, name of Jack?
       Subtitle:             Hey, Ennis.  You know somebody, name of Jack?

When subtitles offer info, such as lighter flicking, sheep bleating, crickets chirping, horses neighing, pan clattering, coughing, clearing throat, bird calling, mmn , grunts, laughing, wind whistling, belts clinking, heavy breathing, Jack moaning, Ennis grunting, gasping, crows cawing, flies buzzing, urinating (yes, even direction as to what Jack was doing), I find it hard to believe they would alter the actual spoken word.  Now, in translation from a foreign language to English, there will always be discrepancies because there are no literal translations, and paraphrasing is the option.  But in this movie, where so much attention to detail of the dialogue is offered, I cannot agree with Daphne.  I truly trust these subtitles.  My friend Lynn, who is deaf, said she enjoyed the movie so much more than other movies because of the detail that allowed her to experience in her head what I heard  on the screen (referring to the sounds of unseen things that we, the hearing, take for granted.)  She further commented that if those sounds had not been subtitle, she would have just been reading dialogue.   

 

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #197 on: August 03, 2006, 06:25:44 pm »
I'm not really sure why, but I feel as though my explanation of why Jack would be the one saying "I'm Sorry" in TS2, is not getting its full credit.  It seems as though everyone is so busy trying to prove who said it, that they are closing their minds as to why (I believe) it was said in the first place.

Um, ok , your logic for Jack saying sorry is fine, although I thought I was quoting the others in the room who made this point.  This topic is a veritable mind field of passions and perceptions don't you think?  Everyone can have slightly different ideas of what the characters are doing and saying, and the mind fills in the rest.  I guess that because the c'mere / sorry / s'alright debate has been going on for so long that it didn't occur to me to qualify the quote with an acknowledgement of this.  So this is me saying sorry! ;)

Like Katherine, I tend to be open to all possibilities without necessarily convinced of any of them.  When I listen to this scene I can hear where the c'mere, sorry, and s'alright's are, but I tend towards the conclusion that the c'mere sound is not really c'mere, but the sound that occurs when one opens their mouth in preparation to speak.  But that doesn't mean that it isn't c'mere.  As for who say sorry, assuming it is sorry, well who knows?  It could be argued that either of them say it for different reasons.

So credit where credit is due Daphne, for what it's worth. 8)
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #198 on: August 03, 2006, 06:26:51 pm »
Mark this moment ... it may be the only time that we are all in 100% agreement!  ;D

Uh-oh! I hate to spoil the sisterhood, but when I said "this method would be fine by me" I actually meant Heath's method. (Damn, I knew I should have gone back and phrased that differently.) (And not that I wouldn't be pretty happy with whatever Jake's method is.)

Well, at least the rest of you can celebrate your mutual agreement. And Diane, sooner or later you and I will agree on something ...

(Just kidding. I think we already do!  ;))

Offline serious crayons

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Re: The mysterious "I love you" and other nearly indiscernible moments
« Reply #199 on: August 03, 2006, 06:38:22 pm »
I find it hard to believe they would alter the actual spoken word. ...  I truly trust these subtitles.   

I haven't watched the subtitles, but it sounds like whoever did the work was very conscientious and thorough. I don't think they would have willfully misrepresented anything, and apparently they rarely got careless.

My distrust would lie only in the fact that, when it comes to some of those nearly indiscernible sounds, the subtitlers are as fallible as we are. I wouldn't be surprised if there are people on this board who have watched the movie more, and given it closer attention, than the subtitlers did. And yet even then, look at all the disagreement!

The subtitlers probably had access to a screenplay and maybe additional materials, but it seems quite possible that the dialogue we are talking about here, if it occurred, was improvised on the set and never put in writing. (If it were in the screenplay, seems like it would have been uttered more clearly.) Therefore, the subtitlers would have had to rely on their eyes and ears, same as we do. And they may have been scrupulous, but they weren't superhuman.

By the way, 2robots4you, has your police-analyst friend had a chance to check it out?