Author Topic: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown  (Read 135224 times)

injest

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #80 on: April 27, 2009, 10:26:46 pm »
You are making generalizations that don't hold up under even a casual analysis of the Prop 8 election and the exit polls.

It is a remarkable stretch to say that all people who went to the polls and voted for Prop 8 voted that way because they "think gays are sick and abnormal - because of their ick factor or because of their religious upbringing"

included among the main reasons Obama handily carried CA handily but Prop 8 passed are:

1) Revulsion among moderate liberals and independents towards the tactics of the Anti Prop 8 campaign - the same types of angry labellings, sneerings, and sweeping generalizations were the rule among the anti Prop 8 supporters that we see here coming from some of those who condemn Ms Prejean as a bigot. In fact, Mr Lavandeira (aka Hilton) must have written the campaign manual for the anti Prop 8 folks, as he sounds just like them.

2) An increasing discomfort among both conservatives and moderates when public policy is being made by the Judiciary. In this case the Supremes in CA overturned a previous referendum in which the voters of CA by very wide margins disapproved of same sex marriage.

add in some VERY bad judgement by supporters of gay marriage...for example the teacher that took her elementary school class to her wedding as a field trip, playing into the oppositions belief that if gay marriage were to remain legal more such things would happen.


Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #81 on: April 27, 2009, 10:31:56 pm »
add in some VERY bad judgement by supporters of gay marriage...for example the teacher that took her elementary school class to her wedding as a field trip, playing into the oppositions belief that if gay marriage were to remain legal more such things would happen.



there seemed to be an astonishing lack of practical political instincts in the Anti Prop 8 campaign in CA, and among their supporters. hopefully same sex marriage advocates have viewed this as a teachable moment and the lessons of their remarkable failure have been learned.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #82 on: April 27, 2009, 10:40:18 pm »
hopefully same sex marriage advocates have viewed this as a teachable moment and the lessons of their remarkable failure have been learned.

That's what I'm hoping. The Gay Party made plenty of mis-steps.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Artiste

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #83 on: April 27, 2009, 11:02:47 pm »
That Miss California did not deserve to be a crown... as she is a  bigot to humanity!

And since someone says:
     Hating gays and not wanting them to have full civil rights is the last acceptable bigotry in America.               , may I add that much needs to be down yet to be accepted as a gay person even in the USA! And much more in Islam, etc.,  and even in non-religious regimes like China who placed gays in prison (and maybe totured them or murdered them) for their recent Olympics!

Also, may it be noted that the USA, Canada and some other nations should be ashamed to what they did to First Nations and still do, unfortunately.

Any news...

au revoir,
hugs!

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #84 on: April 28, 2009, 12:12:37 am »
You are making generalizations that don't hold up under even a casual analysis of the Prop 8 election and the exit polls.

It is a remarkable stretch to say that all people who went to the polls and voted for Prop 8 voted that way because they "think gays are sick and abnormal - because of their ick factor or because of their religious upbringing"

included among the main reasons Obama handily carried CA handily but Prop 8 passed are:

1) Revulsion among moderate liberals and independents towards the tactics of the Anti Prop 8 campaign - the same types of angry labellings, sneerings, and sweeping generalizations were the rule among the anti Prop 8 supporters that we see here coming from some of those who condemn Ms Prejean as a bigot. In fact, Mr Lavandeira (aka Hilton) must have written the campaign manual for the anti Prop 8 folks, as he sounds just like them.

2) An increasing discomfort among both conservatives and moderates when public policy is being made by the Judiciary. In this case the Supremes in CA overturned a previous referendum in which the voters of CA by very wide margins disapproved of same sex marriage.

I wasn't just speaking of California.  Don't forget, voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.  What mistakes were made there?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #85 on: April 28, 2009, 12:18:18 am »
I wasn't just speaking of California.  Don't forget, voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.  What mistakes were made there?

I don't know, I was discussing the Prop 8 vote in CA in relation to the tactics used against Ms Prejean. Please enlighten us on the dynamics of the voting in the 11 states you mentioned. 

Offline milomorris

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #86 on: April 28, 2009, 12:42:49 am »
I wasn't just speaking of California.  Don't forget, voters in Arkansas, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon and Utah all approved anti-same-sex marriage amendments by double-digit margins.  What mistakes were made there?

I do not see this as a state-by-state problem when it comes to the strategic direction and tactical approaches of the Gay Party, rather I see a number of systemic problems that have contributed to these failures. These are in no specific order.

- Villanizing the portion of the population who are against sexual minorities. Trying to shame people en masse into doing the right thing rarely works. A more effective approach would be to offer enlightenment.

- Attacking people's faith and religions. This approach fails because its not the faith or religion that is the problem, its the specific doctrines of individual denominations and congregations. Rather than producing endless litanies of all the historical dirt done by various religions, it would be more effective to focus on the parts of the doctrine that relates specifically to sexual minorities. There are plenty of theological writings out there by clerics in various faiths that can provide (or be a jumping off point) sufficient arguments to doctrine-based objections to sexual minorities.

- Confusing the core objective of civil rights with emotional objectives: "its about love." No, its not about love. Its never been about love. Its about equal standing under the law.

- Too much emphasis on what has been done to us, rather than on what we need going forward. Yes, defining the problem is important. But there are too many communications out there that do nothing but lay blame.

- Overstating the state of affairs for sexual minorities. We are not oppressed, persecuted, etc. What I perceive is that we are inconvenienced and discriminated against. Oppression and persecution look more like what's going on in Muslim countries; e.g., arrests, honor killings, murders, and executions.

- The "marriage or bust" philosophy. As one poster here on Bettermost reported, New Zealand has managed to achieve legal parity for sexual minorities via civil unions. If they could do it, we can too.

- Blurring the line between civil rights and social acceptance.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

pnwDUDE

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #87 on: April 28, 2009, 02:42:20 am »
- Villanizing the portion of the population who are against sexual minorities. Trying to shame people en masse into doing the right thing rarely works. A more effective approach would be to offer enlightenment.
- Attacking people's faith and religions. This approach fails because its not the faith or religion that is the problem, its the specific doctrines of individual denominations and congregations.

And one can't shame a person who has a heart-felt belief in a particular religion--Christian, Muslim, et. all. This 'shaming' backfires because it doesn't consist of logical arguments or discussion of that part of a religious doctrine which may be open for interpretation. I'm thinking specifically of homosexuality. Instead, the resorting to name calling, wagging fingers at someone, and/or down right making fun of one's religious beliefs isn't healthy in a country where more than not have a faith based foundation. Then, to top it off, to have the likes of Perez Hilton or Jeanine Garofalo dress someone down because he or she happens to stand on principles similar with a MAJORITY of the populace, it is no wonder more states are following the footsteps of California and we are further from same-sex equal rights then we were a couple years ago.

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- Confusing the core objective of civil rights with emotional objectives: "its about love." No, its not about love. Its never been about love. Its about equal standing under the law.
But Milo, as we have seen here repeatedly, it isn't about equal standing under the law. If that were the platform, those equal rights would have come easy. People need to get over with the cry baby mantra of, "well, If I can't be married just like my mom and dad, I don't want it". Thing is, most of the people that cling to this don't even have partners. They are so fuckin' busy trying to force acceptance of them because they have held such a chip on their shoulders or they were badgered or made fun of at one point in their life, they become blinded by the 'rights' issue, and seem to have the inability to settle down with one person for the long term.

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- Too much emphasis on what has been done to us, rather than on what we need going forward. Yes, defining the problem is important. But there are too many communications out there that do nothing but lay blame.
Gotta make up for lost time. I'm sure there will be some sort of organized reparations effort at the end of the day. Perhaps a second career for Barney Frank.

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- Overstating the state of affairs for sexual minorities. We are not oppressed, persecuted, etc. What I perceive is that we are inconvenienced and discriminated against. Oppression and persecution look more like what's going on in Muslim countries; e.g., arrests, honor killings, murders, and executions.
No, we aren't persecuted or oppressed. Clinging to this ridiculous notion makes it very easy for those opponents to roll their eyes and mutter, "whatever". If there is so much oppression and persecution, where is it? I have been in the law enforcement field for many years, and I ain't seein' it and statistics aren't there to back up such claims. Yeah, there is inconvenience and discrimination in two areas--legal rights of married couples (I didn't say marriage) and the right to serve in the armed forces. IMO, we still have these inconveniences because of the tact with which most gay rights proponents and lefties insist we take.

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- The "marriage or bust" philosophy. As one poster here on Bettermost reported, New Zealand has managed to achieve legal parity for sexual minorities via civil unions. If they could do it, we can too.
You don't get it, Milo. It's gotta be marriage. People can't think a man and women equals marriage. They must not see a difference and need to think whenever the term marriage is used, one shouldn't assume anything. Hmmmmm. Feel good politics and not a damn thing about equal rights.

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- Blurring the line between civil rights and social acceptance.

No amount of legislating can get a person to accept another. Forget the acceptance, lets move on to legal rights. Once that is outta the way, if one expects to be accepted, one has to be accepting.

Brad

Offline milomorris

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #88 on: April 28, 2009, 02:51:08 am »
Gotta make up for lost time. I'm sure there will be some sort of organized reparations effort at the end of the day. Perhaps a second career for Barney Frank.

BWAAAHAAHAAHAHAAAHA!!!!

Then I'll be getting whatever Barney Frank can negotiate PLUS my 40 acres and a mule.

WOOOHOOO!!!!!
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

pnwDUDE

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Re: Gay Marriage Sinks Miss California's shot at Crown
« Reply #89 on: April 28, 2009, 02:57:27 am »
BWAAAHAAHAAHAHAAAHA!!!!

Then I'll be getting whatever Barney Frank can negotiate PLUS my 40 acres and a mule.

WOOOHOOO!!!!!

Shit Milo, you could scare up some Japanese in your lineage and hit the jackpot.

Brad