Author Topic: Christian Domestic Discipline  (Read 75156 times)

Offline Meryl

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Christian Domestic Discipline
« on: September 14, 2011, 12:32:23 pm »
Different strokes for different folks?  But blechh, and I do mean blechh!!   Where's the vomit smiley when you need it?  >:(

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/how_to_discipline.html

Just an example below.  The whole site is devoted to this medieval BS:

The Application of Discipline to Your Wife

You must always remember those two sin dynamics common to all women, for the vast majority of your discipline will stem from her struggles concerning them. Of course, each wife has peculiar struggles for you to deal with as well, and you'll need to be aware of them when they rear their heads.

First, do not attempt to discipline your wife without first going to the Lord in prayer. No man alone is wise enough, and we must seek the Lord when faced with discipline issues.

There are two primary methods to discipline in the home towards wives, and one necessary means of grace. Following are the methods of discipline:

    Exhortation. When your wife is sinning, exhort her with the Word. Use your Bibles, gents! This needs to be done with gentleness, and often you will need to repeat yourself several times (using similar words) before it sinks in. Remember always, when disciplining that the person before you is the most cherished, adored person in your universe. Treat her as such. If you have children, it may, depending on how her sin touched the children require that they be present. However, keep control of the situation. DO NOT LET THE CHILDREN EXHORT YOUR WIFE DIRECTLY! There are times when children may do so, but once you're involved, it's your show, Husband. If the children have something to say (and you feel that it needs to be heard) have them address you, and not her. You are your wife's leader and authority in the home, not the children. Do not risk upsetting that balance.

    Rebuke and Lash. This is the harshest discipline a husband should administer, and it should always be done privately and with Godly, Biblical love. Usually, exhortation will have already taken place before this method is used, but there may come situations where this is the first step. The rebuke and lashing should be administered with a calm heart. Talk to your wife, let her know you are serious, and tell her why she is to be disciplined physically.
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Offline southendmd

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 12:41:13 pm »
Different strokes for different folks?  But blechh, and I do mean blechh!!   Where's the vomit smiley when you need it?  >:(

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Offline Meryl

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2011, 01:18:14 pm »
Ich bin ein Brokie...

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2011, 02:54:19 pm »
    Rebuke and Lash. This is the harshest discipline a husband should administer, and it should always be done privately and with Godly, Biblical love. Usually, exhortation will have already taken place before this method is used, but there may come situations where this is the first step. The rebuke and lashing should be administered with a calm heart. Talk to your wife, let her know you are serious, and tell her why she is to be disciplined physically.

Under the Common Law you could you beat your wife as long as the club was no thicker than two fingers.

Or maybe it was one finger. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 02:57:34 pm »
Different strokes for different folks?  But blechh, and I do mean blechh!!   Where's the vomit smiley when you need it?  >:(

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/how_to_discipline.html

Just an example below.  The whole site is devoted to this medieval BS:

The Application of Discipline to Your Wife

You must always remember those two sin dynamics common to all women, for the vast majority of your discipline will stem from her struggles concerning them. Of course, each wife has peculiar struggles for you to deal with as well, and you'll need to be aware of them when they rear their heads.

First, do not attempt to discipline your wife without first going to the Lord in prayer. No man alone is wise enough, and we must seek the Lord when faced with discipline issues.

There are two primary methods to discipline in the home towards wives, and one necessary means of grace. Following are the methods of discipline:

    Exhortation. When your wife is sinning, exhort her with the Word. Use your Bibles, gents! This needs to be done with gentleness, and often you will need to repeat yourself several times (using similar words) before it sinks in. Remember always, when disciplining that the person before you is the most cherished, adored person in your universe. Treat her as such. If you have children, it may, depending on how her sin touched the children require that they be present. However, keep control of the situation. DO NOT LET THE CHILDREN EXHORT YOUR WIFE DIRECTLY! There are times when children may do so, but once you're involved, it's your show, Husband. If the children have something to say (and you feel that it needs to be heard) have them address you, and not her. You are your wife's leader and authority in the home, not the children. Do not risk upsetting that balance.

    Rebuke and Lash. This is the harshest discipline a husband should administer, and it should always be done privately and with Godly, Biblical love. Usually, exhortation will have already taken place before this method is used, but there may come situations where this is the first step. The rebuke and lashing should be administered with a calm heart. Talk to your wife, let her know you are serious, and tell her why she is to be disciplined physically.

Don´t be surprised if they get off on it, too.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2011, 04:30:12 pm »
Don´t be surprised if they get off on it, too.

So what if they get off on it?? Its not all that different than what goes on with the BDSM crowd.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2011, 05:20:35 pm »
So what if they get off on it?? Its not all that different than what goes on with the BDSM crowd.
 BDSM takes place between two concenting adults, and is about mutual pleasure and trust. This is about men beating on their wives.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2011, 05:27:06 pm »
Under the Common Law you could you beat your wife as long as the club was no thicker than two fingers.

Or maybe it was one finger. ...

It was a thumb. Thus, the "rule of thumb."


  BDSM takes place between two concenting adults, and is about mutual pleasure and trust. The two things have nothing in common.

I suspect that nowadays many of these Christian cases involve consenting adults, too, and that there is often an unstated element of BDSM involved. Except in rare cases -- forced marriages, or people from the most extremely fundamentalist families -- I would guess most women in these marriages pretty much know what they're getting into. I have read quotes from wives in the past, and they seem to be fairly willing participants. After all, there is no reason to assume that conservative Christians are any less likely than others to have these sorts of sexual interests.





Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2011, 05:39:46 pm »

I suspect that nowadays many of these Christian cases involve consenting adults, too, and that there is often an unstated element of BDSM involved. Except in rare cases -- forced marriages, or people from the most extremely fundamentalist families -- I would guess most women in these marriages pretty much know what they're getting into. I have read quotes from wives in the past, and they seem to be fairly willing participants. After all, there is no reason to assume that conservative Christians are any less likely than others to have these sorts of sexual interests.


I think most women in these types of relationships have been more or less raised to believe that this is OK behavior, and that is why they are "OK" with it. I have a hard time believeing that these Christians belong to some type of Christian BDSM group.

I´m sure BDSM is as common among Christians as in any other group, but BDSM is generally not about one gender "punishing" another. In BDSM, it can just as well be the women who ties the guy up. BDSM-plays generally also stay in the bedroom. I wouldn´t compare violence aimed at one gender, with sexual plays with the aim to pleasure.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 05:43:29 pm »
 BDSM takes place between two concenting adults, and is about mutual pleasure and trust. This is about men beating on their wives.

Not from the Christian's POV. This is love, and the woman does indeed consent to live this way. Marriages among Fundamentalists are like this. They don't all beat their wives, but almost ALL of them have a dominant husband/submissive wife component. They believe that's how God intended things to be.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 05:46:21 pm »
BDSM-plays generally also stay in the bedroom.

I've met BDSM couples of mixed, and same gender. The dominant partner is dominant outside the bedroom too. He or she is the "boss" at all times.

  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 05:54:28 pm »
I've met BDSM couples of mixed, and same gender. The dominant partner is dominant outside the bedroom too. He or she is the "boss" at all times.


Not true in my experience. There are also couples that switch roles from time to time.

But this thread is not about BDSM, let´s get back on topic, shall we?



Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 06:03:25 pm »
Not true in my experience. There are also couples that switch roles from time to time.

But this thread is not about BDSM, let´s get back on topic, shall we?




Fine. There are women of different faiths who LIKE the idea of their husbands being in charge, making the decisions, etc. And that CAN include beating them. I know that there are some orthodox jews, and muslims who live like that. So this is not particular to Fundamentalist Christians.

They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone around them. Isn't that the lifestyle litmus-test around these parts?
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 06:34:41 pm »
Not true in my experience. There are also couples that switch roles from time to time.

But this thread is not about BDSM, let´s get back on topic, shall we?

But the thread IS about BDSM, at least in part. That's not off topic.

I think that -- to some extent, at least in some cases -- Christian Domestic Discipline is a form of BDSM that both spouses find acceptable or even appealing and that passes muster in the Christian community because it is practiced under the guise of religious ideology rather than a sexuality they, given their faith, would have to profess to find "deviant."

And I agree with Milo that many couples do not switch back and forth.

In other words, if women in these marriages are being unwillingly subjected to domestic physical abuse, then I am as upset about it as I would in any other domestic abuse situation, Christian or otherwise. And that may indeed be the case in some of these marriages. My point is, I think that often this is something else entirely.





 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 06:37:31 pm »
It was a thumb. Thus, the "rule of thumb."

That's what it was! Thanks, Katharine!  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 08:10:47 pm »
Fine. There are women of different faiths who LIKE the idea of their husbands being in charge, making the decisions, etc. And that CAN include beating them. I know that there are some orthodox jews, and muslims who live like that. So this is not particular to Fundamentalist Christians.

They're happy, and they're not hurting anyone around them. Isn't that the lifestyle litmus-test around these parts?

I would only consider their desire to have a marriage like that perfectly acceptable if the women had been raised knowing they had other options.  But few of them are.  They were raised to be dependent and to think they're nothing without a man and that that is the way Jesus and god wants it...otherwise they'll burn in hell.

That's hardly a sound upbringing and basis for free-will or healthy choices or a healthy attitude about sexuality and marriage.

Not from the Christian's POV. This is love, and the woman does indeed consent to live this way. Marriages among Fundamentalists are like this. They don't all beat their wives, but almost ALL of them have a dominant husband/submissive wife component. They believe that's how God intended things to be.

Until of course, the dissonance becomes too much and then BLAM!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Winkler

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 10:26:15 pm »
That's hardly a sound upbringing and basis for free-will or healthy choices or a healthy attitude about sexuality and marriage.

"Sound" and "healthy" are highly subjective, and not ours to determine for others. Remember that--in the minds of many people in MANY religious groups--nothing...absolutely NOTHING is as important as having a successful afterlife. And in  order to get there, they are willing to follow the doctrines of their religious leaders to the letter.

So for these women, "sound" and "healthy" mean submitting to their husbands. They would look at most of the women here and say that y'all are neither "sound" nor "healthy," but rather on a course for certain, ultimate death. Which is also highly subjective, and not theirs to determine for you.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2011, 08:10:44 am »
They would look at most of the women here and say that y'all are neither "sound" nor "healthy," but rather on a course for certain, ultimate death. Which is also highly subjective, and not theirs to determine for you.

Good point.

Also, I have to wonder how many Western women are raised in THAT extreme of an environment these days. Fifty years ago, sure. Nowadays, for an American woman to have grown up with no exposure to other, more secular, viewpoints would mean really unusual isolation -- not just homeschooling but no TV, no computer, etc. Even if their parents hold those views, most women would be familiar with the idea that other people hold other views and as adults they can make their own choices. Many children of religiously conservative parents DO, in fact, go on to make different choices. Even the children of immigrants whose parents hold strict traditionalist views and expect their children to follow them go in different directions once they're old enough to do so.

Among fundamentalist Christians, this sort of cultural isolation would be extremely unusual (outside of, say, the Amish community). Most of the people in those huge evangelistic churches, for example, are reasonably sophisticated about the culture around them. Look at Michele Bachmann, for example.

I once read an interview (in "Bitch" or "Bust" -- can't remember which) with women in domestic discipline marriages. They were quite aware of the other options, but felt like this was right for them. But again, there was something in the interviews that suggested they found it appealing.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 08:31:52 am »
Nowadays, for an American woman to have grown up with no exposure to other, more secular, viewpoints would mean really unusual isolation -- not just homeschooling but no TV, no computer, etc. Even if their parents hold those views, most women would be familiar with the idea that other people hold other views and as adults they can make their own choices.

Absolutely. The kind of life we're talking about here is their choice.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2011, 09:06:22 am »
I once read an interview (in "Bitch" or "Bust" -- can't remember which) with women in domestic discipline marriages. They were quite aware of the other options, but felt like this was right for them. But again, there was something in the interviews that suggested they found it appealing.

I suppose it's beyond the scope of this thread, but this outlook isn't necessarily limited to women, either. I hear tell  ::)  that there are some straight men who are perfectly happy being the submissive partner in a marriage, and I know there are some gay men who are perfectly content to be "slaves" to other men--not just in the bedroom but in their ordinary daily lives, too. I'm sure in both situations, the submissives are quite aware of other options.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 08:08:20 am »
Good point.

Also, I have to wonder how many Western women are raised in THAT extreme of an environment these days. Fifty years ago, sure. Nowadays, for an American woman to have grown up with no exposure to other, more secular, viewpoints would mean really unusual isolation -- not just homeschooling but no TV, no computer, etc. Even if their parents hold those views, most women would be familiar with the idea that other people hold other views and as adults they can make their own choices. Many children of religiously conservative parents DO, in fact, go on to make different choices. Even the children of immigrants whose parents hold strict traditionalist views and expect their children to follow them go in different directions once they're old enough to do so.

Among fundamentalist Christians, this sort of cultural isolation would be extremely unusual (outside of, say, the Amish community). Most of the people in those huge evangelistic churches, for example, are reasonably sophisticated about the culture around them. Look at Michele Bachmann, for example.

You would think, but then why are there so many women who stay in abusive relationships?  They see other options, they have other options, they know there are other options, yet they stay with abusive men.  Why is that?  

Mental conditioning.

Same with the strict Christian marriage thing.

If these women were raised with the attitude I suggested, then they don't think they have other choices that agree with their belief system.  They'll burn in hell you see, if they get it wrong.  They've been raised that they should put everyone  else's well-being ahead of their own.  So they're the first to cave should everyone else's desires go against her own.

I had a friend in college - 10 years ago now - and she wasn't raised in a very Christian household, but she was raised with a dominating father and submissive mother and raised to be completely dependent.  Then she turned 18 and her father cut her loose.  What do you think happened?  She couldn't function very well on her own.  She didn't know anything about finances, about getting a higher education, having healthy relationships with boyfriends (her mother having told her she was nothing without a man), so she kept having abusive boyfriends, bouncing checks, having to move back home where her father could tell her how useless and worthless she was.

It still happens, even in this day and age in our society and in this particular case, in a very liberal college town when she was in no way isolated from others.

Mental conditioning is very hard to break.

"Sound" and "healthy" are highly subjective, and not ours to determine for others.

No, incorrect.  There is a standard and society determines it all the time, hence the justice system, Social Services, homes for abused wives and domestic violence counseling and powers of attorney.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2011, 09:05:35 am »
You would think, but then why are there so many women who stay in abusive relationships?  They see other options, they have other options, they know there are other options, yet they stay with abusive men.  Why is that?  

Mental conditioning.

Same with the strict Christian marriage thing.

If these women were raised with the attitude I suggested, then they don't think they have other choices that agree with their belief system.  They'll burn in hell you see, if they get it wrong.  They've been raised that they should put everyone  else's well-being ahead of their own.  So they're the first to cave should everyone else's desires go against her own.

I had a friend in college - 10 years ago now - and she wasn't raised in a very Christian household, but she was raised with a dominating father and submissive mother and raised to be completely dependent.  Then she turned 18 and her father cut her loose.  What do you think happened?  She couldn't function very well on her own.  She didn't know anything about finances, about getting a higher education, having healthy relationships with boyfriends (her mother having told her she was nothing without a man), so she kept having abusive boyfriends, bouncing checks, having to move back home where her father could tell her how useless and worthless she was.

Sure, of course there are women like that. There's everything under the sun out there. And yes, I'm sure there are women in Christian domestic discipline marriages who resemble women in non-Christian abusive relationships. That is, they develop a combination of fear of their husbands, learned helplessness and actual inability to support themselves and/or their children and are convinced they have no other options.

But the fact that your example from college is someone who was NOT raised in a very Christian household is telling.

What I'm saying is that I think the number of American families who are such strict conservative Christians that they raise their daughters to be totally convinced that they have to submit to their husbands' physical punishment ... I think that population is infinitesimal, at this point. Does it ever, ever happen? Sure, probably. But the average American conservative Christian is a long way from that. Many of them didn't even grow up in particularly strictly religious families; they were born again as adults.

I think we liberals tend to demonize conservative Christians to the point that many of us would believe just about any kind of 19th-century-style behavior is still prevalent. It's not. I think Michele Bachmann is a good example of what modern conservative Christians are like: their political views are very different from mine on issues like religion in schools, health care, marriage equality, etc. But as far as women go they're reasonably modern. That's why conservative Christians readily support figures like Bachmann or Sarah Palin; they are OK with women being successful and authoritative as long as they share their other political views.

If Michele and her husband practice Christian domestic discipline -- and obviously I have no idea whether they do or not -- I'm sure it's for their own amusement.

FYI, Bachmann has said she follows the Bible's teachings to be "submissive" to her husband. It's not totally clear what that entails, but it supposedly involves mutual respect, not a domestic discipline type of relationship. Here's an article that explores the topic of Bachmann's marriage, if anyone is interested:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/michele-bachmann-submissive-wife-belief-matter-interpretation/story?id=14292494


« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 10:50:53 am by serious crayons »

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2011, 10:57:00 am »
No, incorrect.  There is a standard and society determines it all the time, hence the justice system, Social Services, homes for abused wives and domestic violence counseling and powers of attorney.

But you're assuming that what goes on in these households meets those standards. If a husband punches his wife in the eye and kicks her in the ribs after she hits the floor, then that is clearly within the standards set by the State. If he gives her a smack on the hand, or spanks her bottom, you and I might find it distasteful, but the State isn't likely to find any wrong-doing.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 06:28:36 pm »
But you're assuming that what goes on in these households meets those standards. If a husband punches his wife in the eye and kicks her in the ribs after she hits the floor, then that is clearly within the standards set by the State. If he gives her a smack on the hand, or spanks her bottom, you and I might find it distasteful, but the State isn't likely to find any wrong-doing.

Someone liking a light smack on the bottom or hand doesn't equate to someone wanting a spouse to dominate their entire lives.

Quote
What I'm saying is that I think the number of American families who are such strict conservative Christians that they raise their daughters to be totally convinced that they have to submit to their husbands' physical punishment ... I think that population is infinitesimal, at this point.

Perhaps, but most abuse situations don't start like that.  Ask many women how violence started in their domestic situation and many will tell you that he "wasn't like that" when they met.  He was just insecure and jealous to begin with (few men aren't), then it started getting worse in degrees.  All women brought up in these radical Christian families have to be taught is that the man is their entire lives.  So they will happily marry a man who is automatically dominant...and it all goes downhill from there.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 06:42:08 pm »
Someone liking a light smack on the bottom or hand doesn't equate to someone wanting a spouse to dominate their entire lives.

I didn't say that it did. The point I was trying to make is that neither the smack on the ass, nor the dominant husband is un-sound, or unhealthy in and of themselves. Especially from the POV of the Christian.

All women brought up in these radical Christian families have to be taught is that the man is their entire lives.  So they will happily marry a man who is automatically dominant...and it all goes downhill from there.

It doesn't go downhill from there in most of the Fundamentalist families that we've been discussing. You're saying that this Christian dominance/submissiveness leads to actual abuse, and that is not what I've seen. I have seen plenty of it among secular couples.

And let's not forget that there is a HUGE difference between a man who abuses because of some internal, violent pathology; and a man who uses physical discipline on his wife because he's been taught that's what a Christian man is supposed to do. The former comes from a place of anger and dysfunction. The latter comes from a sense of duty and doing the right thing.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2011, 12:04:46 am »
I didn't say that it did. The point I was trying to make is that neither the smack on the ass, nor the dominant husband is un-sound, or unhealthy in and of themselves. Especially from the POV of the Christian.

Neither does society.  ???

Quote
It doesn't go downhill from there in most of the Fundamentalist families that we've been discussing. You're saying that this Christian dominance/submissiveness leads to actual abuse, and that is not what I've seen. I have seen plenty of it among secular couples.

No, I'm saying that in situations where there is abuse, the reason it exists is that of the two, one has the issues, the other has been brought up - somehow, someway - to think so little of themselves, that they will put up with it.

Fundamentalist upbringing for women is a perfect seed for such relationships to form.  Not that they all do or will.

Many of such upbringing leads to women simply being dominated by their husbands because they don't believe they have a choice.

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And let's not forget that there is a HUGE difference between a man who abuses because of some internal, violent pathology; and a man who uses physical discipline on his wife because he's been taught that's what a Christian man is supposed to do. The former comes from a place of anger and dysfunction. The latter comes from a sense of duty and doing the right thing.

That's assuming you think the latter is right as well.  Describing his acts nicely as "duty" and the "right thing" doesn't convince me that guy is blameless.  Hitting another adult whose only crime in a marriage is...

What could cause a man to strike his wife?  As something she deserves?  Unless she's coming at him with a knife, gun or her fists, I can't thing of a single thing that would make it 'right'.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2011, 12:21:32 am »
Sure, of course there are women like that. There's everything under the sun out there. And yes, I'm sure there are women in Christian domestic discipline marriages who resemble women in non-Christian abusive relationships. That is, they develop a combination of fear of their husbands, learned helplessness and actual inability to support themselves and/or their children and are convinced they have no other options.

But the fact that your example from college is someone who was NOT raised in a very Christian household is telling.

I think it's extremely telling.  That sort of upbringing leads to that kind of mental state.  Regardless of what a woman sees around her, who her friends are, what her education level is, if she's been raised to think so little of herself, she will put up with all sorts of dominating behavior because she thinks she has no choice.

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What I'm saying is that I think the number of American families who are such strict conservative Christians that they raise their daughters to be totally convinced that they have to submit to their husbands' physical punishment ... I think that population is infinitesimal, at this point. Does it ever, ever happen? Sure, probably. But the average American conservative Christian is a long way from that. Many of them didn't even grow up in particularly strictly religious families; they were born again as adults.

As I said in my post, what is rare I think is families raising daughters to expect physical punishment.  I doubt they do.  What they are raised with is the idea that the man is the leader, the shepherd, the one to whom she must cling, the one who is closer to god, the one who is in control.  With that sort of idea about a marriage spouse, when/if the abuse starts, it's unlikely she's going to think anything is wrong with HIM.

The stats are only stats of those who REPORT the abuse.  If a woman doesn't think the husband is doing anything wrong, or that she somehow deserves her treatment, and he reinforces this idea along with her family and social network, she's not going to report it.  There could be a lot more of it than we know about.

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I think we liberals tend to demonize conservative Christians to the point that many of us would believe just about any kind of 19th-century-style behavior is still prevalent. It's not. I think Michele Bachmann is a good example of what modern conservative Christians are like: their political views are very different from mine on issues like religion in schools, health care, marriage equality, etc. But as far as women go they're reasonably modern. That's why conservative Christians readily support figures like Bachmann or Sarah Palin; they are OK with women being successful and authoritative as long as they share their other political views.

Ummmm, maybe they give verbal lip-service to approving of them, but it's unlikely with the male dominated society that they subscribe to that they'd actually vote for them.  A friend of mine were just talking about this very subject just this weekend and this was our conclusion.  :)

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FYI, Bachmann has said she follows the Bible's teachings to be "submissive" to her husband. It's not totally clear what that entails, but it supposedly involves mutual respect, not a domestic discipline type of relationship. Here's an article that explores the topic of Bachmann's marriage, if anyone is interested

 :laugh: :laugh:

It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband.  If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.

If such women were truly as bible following as they claim to be, we wouldn't be hearing from them.  Bachman is a typical fundamentalist hypocrite like all the others.

The novel The Handmaid's Tale was pretty amusing when it described a similar situation.  In that novel, the US has become a theocracy that harkens to Hebrew Bible teachings.  A woman politician much like Bachman or professional like Schlafly - before the move to the theocratic form of government - used to go on public speech jags about a Christian woman's proper place, blah blah blah... then when the country actually went to a theocratic government, women were silenced in public.  Just like the bible says.  The main character of the book notices that this ex-politico/professional woman is not happy about being put in her proper place.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2011, 02:14:32 am »
I think it's extremely telling.  That sort of upbringing leads to that kind of mental state.  Regardless of what a woman sees around her, who her friends are, what her education level is, if she's been raised to think so little of herself, she will put up with all sorts of dominating behavior because she thinks she has no choice.

Well, I'm more of a believer in nature than nurture. But let's say it's all about upbringing. Even so, by your description is valid but not specific to the Christian community. That was my point.

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As I said in my post, what is rare I think is families raising daughters to expect physical punishment.  I doubt they do.  What they are raised with is the idea that the man is the leader, the shepherd, the one to whom she must cling, the one who is closer to god, the one who is in control.  With that sort of idea about a marriage spouse, when/if the abuse starts, it's unlikely she's going to think anything is wrong with HIM.

What I'm saying is that I think families that teach that the man is "the leader, the shepherd" etc. -- in other words, families who advocate that the woman should be totally subordinate and submissive to the man -- are in 2011 very few and far between. Again, I'm sure they exist out there, but they are not mainstream, so to speak, conservative Christians. Don't believe me? Let's take a look. The conservative Christians I know in RL don't say that. The conservatives I've gotten to know on BetterMost don't say that. Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Michele Bachmann, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh don't say that. I've never heard Pat Robertson and his ilk say that.

Are there some backwoods, backwards, old-school Christians who still teach their daughters that sort of thing? No doubt. Heck, I've met backwoods types who's families have been in the United States since the 18th century yet they don't speak English (only French). My point is that people like that are rare outliers, not what you'd expect from some average conservative Christian family.

As far as average Christian families go, they and I probably wouldn't see eye to eye on lots and lots of issues, including women's roles. But do they think that men are totally the boss of women and that women have to do whatever men say? No, not often.

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The stats are only stats of those who REPORT the abuse.  If a woman doesn't think the husband is doing anything wrong, or that she somehow deserves her treatment, and he reinforces this idea along with her family and social network, she's not going to report it.  There could be a lot more of it than we know about.

The stats are definitely under-reported, although in this day and age it's less because the woman doesn't think the husband is doing anything wrong -- women who think like that are extremely are -- as that she feels helpless, scared and/or loves him and is trying to protect him.

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Ummmm, maybe they give verbal lip-service to approving of them, but it's unlikely with the male dominated society that they subscribe to that they'd actually vote for them.  A friend of mine were just talking about this very subject just this weekend and this was our conclusion.  :)

If those candidates were the most conservative candidates around, you can bet they'd vote for them. I think that, for instance, if the GOP race were between Michele Bachmann and Mitt Romney, Bachmann would win easily with the far-right conservative Christians. Though not among the more reasonable moderate Republicans, so in the end Bachmann probably wouldn't get the nomination.

Masses of people don't usually "give lip service" to some candidate and then vote otherwise. Except when it comes to black candidates, in which case there's an actual phenomenon called the Wilder Effect (after Gov. Douglas Wilder of Virginia) about people telling pollsters they're likely to vote for a black candidate but then not actually doing it. You could argue that Bachmann, Palin, etc., would be the subjects of their own personal Wilder effect. But I disagree, and unless we have numbers we won't resolve that easily.

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It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband.  If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.

Well, exactly. I think Bachmann saying she's submissive is sort of a PC statement for that community and doesn't really mean much. If she were following Bible teachings, she would leave/have left the house when she has/had her period, spend the time in isolation and avoid touching anything that others touched.

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If such women were truly as bible following as they claim to be, we wouldn't be hearing from them.  Bachman is a typical fundamentalist hypocrite like all the others.

Sure. They pick and choose just like most Jews and Christians do. Just at a more fundamentalist level.

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The novel The Handmaid's Tale was pretty amusing when it described a similar situation.  In that novel, the US has become a theocracy that harkens to Hebrew Bible teachings.  A woman politician much like Bachman or professional like Schlafly - before the move to the theocratic form of government - used to go on public speech jags about a Christian woman's proper place, blah blah blah... then when the country actually went to a theocratic government, women were silenced in public.  Just like the bible says.  The main character of the book notices that this ex-politico/professional woman is not happy about being put in her proper place.

I've read it. It was published in 1985, and very topical in respect to the Iranian revolutio -- that is, with only slight exaggeration, what happened to Iranian women. As for North America, it wasn't, and isn't, as good a fit. It's dystopian, for sure, but we were nowhere close to that sort of society 26 years ago and we're much further away from it today.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2011, 10:07:28 am »
Fundamentalist upbringing for women is a perfect seed for such relationships to form.  Not that they all do or will.

Fair enough. It certainly could turn abusive.


That's assuming you think the latter is right as well.  Describing his acts nicely as "duty" and the "right thing" doesn't convince me that guy is blameless.  Hitting another adult whose only crime in a marriage is...

What could cause a man to strike his wife?  As something she deserves?  Unless she's coming at him with a knife, gun or her fists, I can't thing of a single thing that would make it 'right'.

But that's my point. They do think its right, and so do their wives. This isn't about the husband's anger, or the wife's self-worth. This is about both husband and wife following the prescribed "biblical" roles in marriage. Remember, as Katherine pointed out a few posts back, most of these people don't grow up in these traditions, they adopt them after they are born-again as adults. They are trained to understand that husbands and wives have some very specific duties and roles. So from their POV behaving this way fulfills part of those duties, and that this is the right way to manage a marriage.

You have to understand that we're talking about a different set of moral codes than in the secular world.
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Offline Shakesthecoffecan

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2011, 11:14:38 am »
Religion, another way to control people......
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2011, 11:53:52 am »
Religion, another way to control people......

Religion can also be another path to enlightenment and self-discovery. It depends how one uses it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2011, 12:50:58 pm »
It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband.  If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.

You seem to have Christians and Jews mixed up. It doesn't seem as though you understand how modern Christians contextualize the Old Testament. Even still, the Old Testament does contain Ruth, Esther, Merriam, etc.

Post some scriptures, and maybe I can help.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2011, 02:53:02 pm »
It also entails Bachman lying about being submissive to her husband.  If she was following the bible teachings as she claims, she'd also have her head covered while speaking in public and be silent in church and her husband should be either with her at all times, or be discouraging her to speak in public.
You seem to have Christians and Jews mixed up. It doesn't seem as though you understand how modern Christians contextualize the Old Testament. Even still, the Old Testament does contain Ruth, Esther, Merriam, etc.

Post some scriptures, and maybe I can help.


Oh, no, I'm definitely not confused.  See below - note: all of these are from the New Testament

1 Corinthians 11:3-16
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
Ephesians 5:22-24
Colossians 3:18-19
1 Timothy 2:11-15

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2011, 02:57:04 pm »
Fair enough. It certainly could turn abusive.


But that's my point. They do think its right, and so do their wives. This isn't about the husband's anger, or the wife's self-worth. This is about both husband and wife following the prescribed "biblical" roles in marriage. Remember, as Katherine pointed out a few posts back, most of these people don't grow up in these traditions, they adopt them after they are born-again as adults. They are trained to understand that husbands and wives have some very specific duties and roles. So from their POV behaving this way fulfills part of those duties, and that this is the right way to manage a marriage.

You have to understand that we're talking about a different set of moral codes than in the secular world.

Except that they're wrong, Milo.  Yes, there can be definitive statements still made in this gray world.  Women are human beings just as men are.  If men can benefit from freedom and fulfilling their own desires and being leaders - and they do - why wouldn't women similarly benefit?  So any philosophy that stifles the ability of women to do these things, that keeps them from fulfilling themselves as human beings is not 'right' in any way.  

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2011, 03:10:39 pm »
Well, I'm more of a believer in nature than nurture. But let's say it's all about upbringing. Even so, by your description is valid but not specific to the Christian community. That was my point.

I saw your point, but I disagree completely.  It's quite valid and can be specific to the Christian community, IMO.

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What I'm saying is that I think families that teach that the man is "the leader, the shepherd" etc. -- in other words, families who advocate that the woman should be totally subordinate and submissive to the man -- are in 2011 very few and far between. Again, I'm sure they exist out there, but they are not mainstream, so to speak, conservative Christians. Don't believe me? Let's take a look.

I don't have to.  I have examples in my life.  My college friend and yet another college friend?  And I currently have two fundamentalist, college-educated, right wing friends.  And a Mormon friend.  They completely believe this.  Based on the numbers of my friends, that's about 35% of the people I know.  Look on TV.  The Duggars?  

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Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Michele Bachmann, Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh don't say that.

These are people whose honesty I don't trust.  They're either opinion talk show celebrities or editorialists who might say or write anything for ratings and sales or politicians who might do the same to win voters.

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I've never heard Pat Robertson and his ilk say that.

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - 1992 Iowa fundraising letter opposing a state equal-rights amendment ("Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked", Washington Post, 23 August 1992)[/b]


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Are there some backwoods, backwards, old-school Christians who still teach their daughters that sort of thing? No doubt. Heck, I've met backwoods types who's families have been in the United States since the 18th century yet they don't speak English (only French). My point is that people like that are rare outliers, not what you'd expect from some average conservative Christian family.

They don't have to be backwoods, crayons, just small town.  Another college friend was from a small town in Texas.  She didn't meet a single black person until she was a teenager.  She has since moved back to that small town, married a small town husband, and lives across the street from her parents, brothers and sisters and their families in the same small town.

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The stats are definitely under-reported, although in this day and age it's less because the woman doesn't think the husband is doing anything wrong -- women who think like that are extremely are -- as that she feels helpless, scared and/or loves him and is trying to protect him.

I'm really thinking it's where you live and the culture around you, crayons.  I see this all the time - from old married women who didn't dare leave their husbands no matter how abusive he was because women don't divorce a husband - so say old school Catholics - to women who are so desperate to have a man, that they'll put up with anything.


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Masses of people don't usually "give lip service" to some candidate and then vote otherwise. Except when it comes to black candidates, in which case there's an actual phenomenon called the Wilder Effect (after Gov. Douglas Wilder of Virginia) about people telling pollsters they're likely to vote for a black candidate but then not actually doing it. You could argue that Bachmann, Palin, etc., would be the subjects of their own personal Wilder effect. But I disagree, and unless we have numbers we won't resolve that easily.

Oh, I think they do.  And quite often.

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I've read it. It was published in 1985, and very topical in respect to the Iranian revolutio -- that is, with only slight exaggeration, what happened to Iranian women. As for North America, it wasn't, and isn't, as good a fit. It's dystopian, for sure, but we were nowhere close to that sort of society 26 years ago and we're much further away from it today.

I'm sure the women of Iran thought so, too.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2011, 03:43:37 pm »

I think that -- to some extent, at least in some cases -- Christian Domestic Discipline is a form of BDSM that both spouses find acceptable or even appealing and that passes muster in the Christian community because it is practiced under the guise of religious ideology rather than a sexuality they, given their faith, would have to profess to find "deviant."

And I agree with Milo that many couples do not switch back and forth.

As any 'professional' can tell you, men who want to be spanked or who are otherwise fascinated by variations of BDSM tend to be 'alpha males' in their non-sexual lives.  It's a safety valve of a sort.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2011, 03:55:48 pm »
I think we liberals tend to demonize conservative Christians to the point that many of us would believe just about any kind of 19th-century-style behavior is still prevalent. It's not. I think Michele Bachmann is a good example of what modern conservative Christians are like: their political views are very different from mine on issues like religion in schools, health care, marriage equality, etc. But as far as women go they're reasonably modern. That's why conservative Christians readily support figures like Bachmann or Sarah Palin; they are OK with women being successful and authoritative as long as they share their other political views.

If Michele and her husband practice Christian domestic discipline -- and obviously I have no idea whether they do or not -- I'm sure it's for their own amusement.


A good measure of how much times have changed, at least in Western countries, is the effort to sugar-coat the biblical view of women and the "duties" of wives.  In the 1980s and 1990s, the context was that a wife wasn't to be bullied by her husband; no, no, no; he was just designed as the household's "spiritual head."  

That was then, this is now. Now, the preferred buzzword is "respect."  Men are to 'love and cherish' their wives; women are to 'respect' their husbands -- apparently respect for the wife, and love for the husband, are optional.  Bachmann was doing nothing more or less than reciting the party line, word for word. Of course, the word used in the New Testament is "submit", not "respect" and I don't know of any translators who say that the word was translated wrong; but that distinction is a concern for those godless biblical scholars.

The basis for the party line is still that the husband stands in for Christ in a relationship; the woman for the Church. Sounds nice, if abstract, until you get to the fact that in Christian teachings Jesus is God incarnate; one of the three entities of the Trinity [i.e., the husband]. The Church, for all the bridal metaphors, is a community of limited, fallible, "sinful" human beings [i.e., the wife].

Whoop-de-do.  Married women here, please raise your hands if you've ever been tempted to regard Friend Husband as a god.

None of which has anything whatsoever to do with bondage or S&M games. I don't know of any psychologically or physically battered women who could tell you what their safe words were.

Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2011, 04:31:19 pm »
Religion, another way to control people......
Yeah, hence all the rules and the "if you don´t do as we say you´ll end up in hell" part.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2011, 05:21:17 pm »
These are people whose honesty I don't trust.  They're either opinion talk show celebrities or editorialists who might say or write anything for ratings and sales or politicians who might do the same to win voters.

Whoa. I'm not saying they're honest. I'm saying that what they say reflects the opinions of their constituencies/audiences. They're quite willing to say all kinds of ridiculous things because that's what their audience believes, or what they want their audience to believe, or what the audience wants to believe. That's why the fact that they DON'T go around saying that men are the leader of women is so telling. If that were a widespread attitude out there -- like, say, the idea that there's no such thing as evolution -- than you can bet they'd be saying it all the time. The fact is, they're not.

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"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - 1992 Iowa fundraising letter opposing a state equal-rights amendment ("Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked", Washington Post, 23 August 1992)[/b]

But see? This very quote just proves my point. Sure, Pat Robertson hates feminists. But note that he explicitly says that feminists are "NOT about equal rights for women" (emphasis added). In other words, equal rights for women is a GOOD thing, but feminism is not because (he says) it's about something else -- i.e., killing one's children, destroying capitalism and becoming lesbians. (Which of course is a much more plausible description of the feminist agenda.  ::))

This is just the right-wing version of left-leaning women who say, I'm for equal rights but don't call me a feminist.

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They don't have to be backwoods, crayons, just small town.  Another college friend was from a small town in Texas.  She didn't meet a single black person until she was a teenager.  She has since moved back to that small town, married a small town husband, and lives across the street from her parents, brothers and sisters and their families in the same small town.

What does this have to do with what we're talking about? I didn't meet a single black person until I was a teenager, either. I grew up in a suburb that was 99% white, like all Minnesota suburbs in them days. I still live near that suburb and have friends there -- heck, I was there last night. Yet I did not grow up thinking that I had to submit to men.

Look, I'm not arguing that all women now grow up in families that are cosmopolitan and sophisticated. I'm simply saying that, even among conservative Christians, the idea that men are the bosses of women and women must to submit to their every demand is pretty passé.

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I'm really thinking it's where you live and the culture around you, crayons.  I see this all the time - from old married women who didn't dare leave their husbands no matter how abusive he was because women don't divorce a husband - so say old school Catholics - to women who are so desperate to have a man, that they'll put up with anything.

Again, yes, sure. But these aren't women necessarily brought up to believe they had to submit to men. In the first case, they were brought up to believe you don't get divorced. In the second case, they are lonely and desperate.

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Oh, I think they do.  And quite often.

The Wilder Effect doesn't apply to cases like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. People who said they were going to vote for Wilder but secretly didn't do so were not also, at the same time, actively and passionately supporting Wilder. They were people giving face-saving information to a pollster just to be P.C. But the people who turn out in droves to see Palin and Bachmann, who defend them to the hilt in newspaper comment sections and so on ... these people don't go to those lengths just to appear P.C. They think those women are fantastic. And in Bachmann's case, anyway, they DO vote for her. That's why she's in office. She gets voted back in by her extremely conservative constituents, because they have no objections to a woman representative as long as she shares their conservative views.

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I'm sure the women of Iran thought so, too.

Right. It took them more or less by surprise also. But they had a very different system of government than we do. America is not run by a dictator now, and I don't see the clergy taking over the government through revolution anytime soon.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2011, 05:41:40 pm »
As any 'professional' can tell you, men who want to be spanked or who are otherwise fascinated by variations of BDSM tend to be 'alpha males' in their non-sexual lives.  It's a safety valve of a sort.

I didn't say they weren't different in their non-sexual lives. I said people in their sexual lives don't necessarily switch back and forth from spanker to spankee.


Whoop-de-do.  Married women here, please raise your hands if you've ever been tempted to regard Friend Husband as a god.

Exactly. And if you asked a group of right-wing Christians the same question, I suspect you would not see a forest of hands pop up.

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None of which has anything whatsoever to do with bondage or S&M games. I don't know of any psychologically or physically battered women who could tell you what their safe words were.

That's right, it doesn't.

Let me be clear. Obviously I believe there are abused women out there. And that some of those abused women are Christians. And that sometimes their Christianity is connected to their abuse, such as when they don't believe in divorce. And in A FEW cases, they were probably raised to believe that the husband is the boss of the household and the wife has to submit, and that somehow leads to their accepting abuse that they might otherwise not put up with.

What I DON'T believe is that most contemporary Christian families teach their children that women must submit to men, that a husband's word is law, etc. -- ideas that might one day lead their daughters to accept physical punishment by their husbands. I think most contemporary Christians at least pay lip service to women's equality, as Pat Robertson did in Delalluvia's quote. Does that mean they're perfect feminists? Of course not. Michele Bachmann and Sarah Palin aren't perfect feminists, not by a long shot. But they don't believe they're inferior to men.

So while some of these domestic discipline cases may involve genuinely disempowered women unwillingly being subjected to domestic abuse, I think many of them involve husbands and wives who find the relationship appealing.

I think liberals tend to expect conservatives to automatically hold extremely outdated views of male and female roles. That's why they pounced on Sarah Palin for pursuing a demanding career when she had a baby at home. But the pouncing backfired, big time, because very few contemporary conservatives would claim that a woman's place is in the home (there are lots of conservative women with successful careers), and because it made liberals look like the sexist ones; no one ever questions whether a male politician should be leaving his children.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2011, 07:01:10 pm »
Women are human beings just as men are.  If men can benefit from freedom and fulfilling their own desires and being leaders - and they do - why wouldn't women similarly benefit?  So any philosophy that stifles the ability of women to do these things, that keeps them from fulfilling themselves as human beings is not 'right' in any way.  

What makes you think that such a marriage keeps these women from fulfilling themselves as human beings?? And better yet, how do you define fulfillment??
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 07:07:04 pm »
Whoa. I'm not saying they're honest. I'm saying that what they say reflects the opinions of their constituencies/audiences. They're quite willing to say all kinds of ridiculous things because that's what their audience believes, or what they want their audience to believe, or what the audience wants to believe. That's why the fact that they DON'T go around saying that men are the leader of women is so telling. If that were a widespread attitude out there -- like, say, the idea that there's no such thing as evolution -- than you can bet they'd be saying it all the time. The fact is, they're not.

I'm sorry crayons but I think you're just splitting hairs here.  Colter has already said that women shouldn't vote because they elect democratic presidents.  Rush coined a term to easily dismiss any woman who actually speaks about women's rights or who is determined about women's rights "feminazi".  They are already dismissive of women.  They don't have to be specific about who is head of the family.  It is automatically implied from their rhetoric.

Quote
But see? This very quote just proves my point. Sure, Pat Robertson hates feminists. But note that he explicitly says that feminists are "NOT about equal rights for women" (emphasis added). In other words, equal rights for women is a GOOD thing, but feminism is not because (he says) it's about something else -- i.e., killing one's children, destroying capitalism and becoming lesbians. (Which of course is a much more plausible description of the feminist agenda.  ::))

This is just the right-wing version of left-leaning women who say, I'm for equal rights but don't call me a feminist.

I guess if you R E A L L Y stretch you can get that interpretation from what he said.    IMO, what he's saying is blatant, women who call themselves feminists are about murdering children and satanism.  There is NO 'legitimate' feminism, IOW.  Again, tarring and feathering a term that women use to further their cause.  Making 'feminisim' an ugly word no one wants to associate with and therefore further splintering groups who work for women's rights.

It's an insidious control mechanism.

Quote
What does this have to do with what we're talking about?

What it relates to is that such people are extremely isolated.  They live in a very homogeneous society and they don't have any other influences other than what they grew up with.  And while they don't have to, they can be easily influenced by that society into thinking that their way is right and everyone else is the problem.  I'm glad you grew up that way crayons.  My friends did not.  And I meet more people like them, than I do people like you.    

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Again, yes, sure. But these aren't women necessarily brought up to believe they had to submit to men. In the first case, they were brought up to believe you don't get divorced. In the second case, they are lonely and desperate.

So why doesn't anyone dissuade them?  Yes, you can get divorced.  No, you don't need a man.  Because the people around them believe what they do, too.


Quote
The Wilder Effect doesn't apply to cases like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. People who said they were going to vote for Wilder but secretly didn't do so were not also, at the same time, actively and passionately supporting Wilder. They were people giving face-saving information to a pollster just to be P.C. But the people who turn out in droves to see Palin and Bachmann, who defend them to the hilt in newspaper comment sections and so on ... these people don't go to those lengths just to appear P.C. They think those women are fantastic. And in Bachmann's case, anyway, they DO vote for her. That's why she's in office. She gets voted back in by her extremely conservative constituents, because they have no objections to a woman representative as long as she shares their conservative views.

But that doesn't explain Palin though, does it?

Quote
Right. It took them more or less by surprise also. But they had a very different system of government than we do. America is not run by a dictator now, and I don't see the clergy taking over the government through revolution anytime soon.

Does it have to be, though?  You do recall how the Mormon Church involved itself in Prop 8 in California, right?  You do recall Dubya courting the religious right and promptly started doing away with funding to Planned Parenthood, outlawing types of abortion, signing into law the religious initiatives, right?  I'm in Texas, I don't have to tell you what the state school board did to the textbooks and history.  I just read a story the other day of yet another school having to be ordered to take down the 10 commandments.  There doesn't have to be a dictator in power.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2011, 07:11:23 pm »
What makes you think that such a marriage keeps these women from fulfilling themselves as human beings?? And better yet, how do you define fulfillment??

As soon as I see men rushing to the altar to get married and planning their weddings from when they were children, then I'll believe that when anyone first thinks of fulfillment, they think marriage.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 07:16:08 pm »
As soon as I see men rushing to the altar to get married and planning their weddings from when they were children, then I'll believe that when anyone first thinks of fulfillment, they think marriage.

Lots of children--Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.--fantasize about their weddings. They play House, etc. And many men are focused on finding a wife--as opposed to just getting laid.

Marriage is a part of life's fulfillment for many people. Even gays.

What IS your point about marriage and fulfillment?
 
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 07:18:05 pm »
Lots of children--Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.--fantasize about their weddings. They play House, etc. And many men are focused on finding a wife--as opposed to just getting laid.

Marriage is a part of life's fulfillment for many people. Even gays.

What IS your point about marriage and fulfillment?
 

 :laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2011, 07:20:26 pm »
:laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

We did.

Again. What are you trying to say about the relationship between marriage and fulfillment? You seem to be setting them at odds.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2011, 07:44:53 pm »
We did.

Again. What are you trying to say about the relationship between marriage and fulfillment? You seem to be setting them at odds.

Not at all.  I just don't think marriage should be the end-all, be-all of anyone's existence or ideas of fulfillment.  Truly Milo, I know of no guy who - when growing up or in school - dreamed about being married.  They dreamed about the girls they'd fuck, the places they'd go, the careers and power and toys they'd have.  Oh, yeah, and maybe some day settling down.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2011, 08:01:09 pm »
Not at all.  I just don't think marriage should be the end-all, be-all of anyone's existence or ideas of fulfillment.  Truly Milo, I know of no guy who - when growing up or in school - dreamed about being married.  They dreamed about the girls they'd fuck, the places they'd go, the careers and power and toys they'd have.  Oh, yeah, and maybe some day settling down.



Most Christian women--especially Fundamentalists--have other ambitions than marriage. Yes, marriage is probably on most of their lists, but does not sit alone at the top.

Rest assured, we most certainly talked about which girls we wanted to fuck. At the same time, almost every boy I grew up with dreamed about having a wife someday. Even I did until I was about 19. My buddies and I would talk about what kind of girl we would marry. What kind of house we would live in. How many kids we wanted. Whether we wanted boys or girls. What we wanted our wives and children to have. What we didn't want for our wives & children. Its pretty typical for children to work out the deficiencies in their own lives through fantasy.

What I don't remember is ever having a single conversation like that with a girl. And that might explain why you never heard any boy speak of these things.

  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2011, 10:02:58 pm »
I didn't say they weren't different in their non-sexual lives. I said people in their sexual lives don't necessarily switch back and forth from spanker to spankee.

That statement was in response to more than one post here.

Quote
Let me be clear. Obviously I believe there are abused women out there. And that some of those abused women are Christians. And that sometimes their Christianity is connected to their abuse, such as when they don't believe in divorce. And in A FEW cases, they were probably raised to believe that the husband is the boss of the household and the wife has to submit, and that somehow leads to their accepting abuse that they might otherwise not put up with. . . . I think liberals tend to expect conservatives to automatically hold extremely outdated views of male and female roles. That's why they pounced on Sarah Palin for pursuing a demanding career when she had a baby at home.

Let me be clear. I'm quite aware that there isn't a one-size-fits-all model for conventional religious family life; for that you might want to address an atheist who's fond of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and cute references comparing a belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus.  

Of course not every religious household teaches the whole party line about female submission.  Is that what you wanted to hear?  But there are more than a few who do, all-caps or otherwise.  It's an idea that isn't consistent with Western culture any longer; that's why it has to be prettied up with imaginative translations like 'submission' equaling 'respect.'  And yes, they do pay lip service to equality for women but there's a whole lot less there than meets the ear.  Plenty of people who oppose equal rights for both women and gays insist up and down that they 'love the fair sex' and/or 'have nothing against The Homosexuals.'  IMO it's more than a little naive to take that at face value.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2011, 10:05:08 pm »
:laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

When I was 4 I played house with the little boy across the street.  My mom was very surprised when she walked in on us, though I must say she was cool about it.    ;D

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2011, 10:21:38 pm »
Let me be clear. I'm quite aware that there isn't a one-size-fits-all model for conventional religious family life; for that you might want to address an atheist who's fond of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and cute references comparing a belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus.  

Marcia! Are you saying Santa Claus doesn't exist?  >:(

 ;)  ;D
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2011, 10:25:41 pm »
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians." - 1992 Iowa fundraising letter opposing a state equal-rights amendment ("Equal Rights Initiative in Iowa Attacked", Washington Post, 23 August 1992)

At Pride events I used to see vendors selling buttons that said something close to, "Sorry I haven't been in church. I've been practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."

 8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2011, 10:35:47 pm »
At Pride events I used to see vendors selling buttons that said something close to, "Sorry I haven't been in church. I've been practicing witchcraft and becoming a lesbian."

 8)

Maybe they were.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2011, 12:07:00 am »
I'm sorry crayons but I think you're just splitting hairs here.  Colter has already said that women shouldn't vote because they elect democratic presidents.  Rush coined a term to easily dismiss any woman who actually speaks about women's rights or who is determined about women's rights "feminazi".  They are already dismissive of women.  They don't have to be specific about who is head of the family.  It is automatically implied from their rhetoric.

I guess if you R E A L L Y stretch you can get that interpretation from what he said.    IMO, what he's saying is blatant, women who call themselves feminists are about murdering children and satanism.  There is NO 'legitimate' feminism, IOW.  Again, tarring and feathering a term that women use to further their cause.  Making 'feminisim' an ugly word no one wants to associate with and therefore further splintering groups who work for women's rights.

If the problem is making feminism an ugly word that no one wants to associate with, then you could as easily blame plenty of young women who wouldn't listen to Rush in a million years -- women with good educations and career plans and the assumption of equality, who associate the F-word with their mothers, with unshaven legs, with sexless man-hating, or whatever. It's stupid, I know, but there you have it. In my mind -- and, seemingly, yours -- "feminist" and "person who supports equal rights for women" are more or less synonymous. But to a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, they're not.

Does that mean I'm saying that Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are wonderful crusaders for equal rights? No no no no no. They're by no means friends of feminism, or women. All I'm saying is that the idea that women and men are not equal is so passé, even in conservative circles, that it's not cool to say so. And that few people even see things that way, in such blunt terms, these days. Does that mean that everybody is now totally enlightened feminists? Hell no. They just don't see women as being SO unequal that they have to submit to their husbands.

Maybe it's the equivalent of a racist who isn't happy to have a black president yet still would not teach his children that black people shouldn't be allowed to use the public pool. We haven't made total progress, but we have made SOME progress. Also, most people, even religious conservatives, have high hopes for their daughters and want them to be successful. If you asked religious conservatives whether they want their daughter to be a doctor, say, versus a housewife who totally submits to her husband, I would guess that 90 percent of them would choose the former.

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What it relates to is that such people are extremely isolated.  They live in a very homogeneous society and they don't have any other influences other than what they grew up with.  And while they don't have to, they can be easily influenced by that society into thinking that their way is right and everyone else is the problem.  I'm glad you grew up that way crayons.  My friends did not.  And I meet more people like them, than I do people like you.

Well, yes. I think part of the issue here is that you live in a red state that's not really known for its educational system and I live in a blue state (historically speaking, anyway) whose schools tend to rank high. So if to a worm in an apple all the world is apple, you and I definitely see different apples. (NOTE: In comparing the public school systems, I hope you understand that I'm not talking about your education vs. mine, I'm talking about the acquaintances you're referring to who are culturally isolated.)

But again, I have allowed that there are some isolated families who aren't reached by modern culture. Again, everything under the sun. So, yes, there are some people who live pretty sequestered lives. But I don't think the average conservative Christian family teaches this to their kids.

Quote
So why doesn't anyone dissuade them?  Yes, you can get divorced.  No, you don't need a man.  Because the people around them believe what they do, too.

Have you ever had any luck telling a friend she was in a stupid relationship and should get out of it? Personally, I never have. And I've had (and have) plenty of friends in stupid relationships. And when I was in stupid relationships, my friends didn't talk me out of them, either.

Quote
But that doesn't explain Palin though, does it?

I'm not sure why I have to offer a separate explanation for the electability of somebody who's not actually even running for office, but yes, indeed, it does explain Palin. If people are going to vote for Michele Bachmann, they're going to vote for Palin -- not that they're identical; Bachmann is far more qualified but has scarier views. But the point is, if far-right conservative Christians love (and believe me, they do LOVE) Bachmann, they would not have a problem with Palin being female if she were to run. Far from it; on the contrary, her femaleness would be a plus, partly because they think she's hot, partly because it's an "in your face" to lefties who, they are fully aware, consider them sexist. And they don't want to be seen as sexist because, as I said, sexism isn't cool, even in conservativeland.

Quote
Does it have to be, though?  You do recall how the Mormon Church involved itself in Prop 8 in California, right?  You do recall Dubya courting the religious right and promptly started doing away with funding to Planned Parenthood, outlawing types of abortion, signing into law the religious initiatives, right?  I'm in Texas, I don't have to tell you what the state school board did to the textbooks and history.  I just read a story the other day of yet another school having to be ordered to take down the 10 commandments.  There doesn't have to be a dictator in power.

Wait, am I now being challenged to defend everything the religious right has ever done? I thought we were just talking about women's equality. Anyway, yes, obviously, there are a lot of people in the United States who are conservative Christians, and yes, they do have a certain degree of political influence. Do I equate that with the United States being on the brink of a revolution that could anytime in the foreseeable future catapult a clergyman into control and turn the country into a theocracy? In a word, no.

BTW, the fact that you read about a school being ordered to take DOWN the 10 Commandments, rather than a school being ordered to put UP the 10 Commandments, supports my point.



« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 10:06:13 am by serious crayons »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2011, 12:30:54 am »
That statement was in response to more than one post here.

Don't remember seeing those, but OK then!  :)

Quote
Of course not every religious household teaches the whole party line about female submission.  Is that what you wanted to hear?

I don't think I particularly "wanted to hear" anything. Just expressing my views, just like everybody here.

But no, I'm afraid my views went a bit beyond what you're stating there. Obviously not every religious household teaches female submission. For example, my son's friend's mother is a rabbi, so I would guess that her household, though presumably religious, does not teach female submission.

But beyond that, what I'm saying is that, even among conservative Christian households, very few (note -- not capitalized!  :)) teach female submission in any explicit way.

Quote
 But there are more than a few who do, all-caps or otherwise.

Ooops! Sorry Marcia, I forgot that you don't like to see any words in all caps, even if it's just one word in a sentence. From now on, I'll try really hard to remember to avoid using them (see above!  :)) and instead to use italics when I'm addressing you and want to emphasize a particular word. It takes a couple of extra keystrokes, but it's so worth it if it means not raising hackles.

Quote
 It's an idea that isn't consistent with Western culture any longer; that's why it has to be prettied up with imaginative translations like 'submission' equaling 'respect.'  And yes, they do pay lip service to equality for women but there's a whole lot less there than meets the ear.  Plenty of people who oppose equal rights for both women and gays insist up and down that they 'love the fair sex' and/or 'have nothing against The Homosexuals.'  IMO it's more than a little naive to take that at face value.

Well, thank goodness I'm not being labeled "more than a little naive" by you. Because no, in fact, I don't take statements like "love the fair sex" or "nothing against The Homosexuals" at face value. Since I have now been discussing my mostly left-leaning views on BetterMost for -- what? at least three years now -- and had really hoped I hadn't come across as a complete idiot during that time, I was thinking that by now most people would understand a point that was a bit more nuanced than that, especially since I've been trying in the past six or eight posts to describe it in more specific terms.




Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2011, 10:18:03 am »
If the problem is making feminism an ugly word that no one wants to associate with, then you could as easily blame plenty of young women who wouldn't listen to Rush in a million years -- women with good educations and career plans and the assumption of equality, who associate the F-word with their mothers, with unshaven legs, with sexless man-hating, or whatever. It's stupid, I know, but there you have it. In my mind -- and, seemingly, yours -- "feminist" and "person who supports equal rights for women" are more or less synonymous. But to a lot of people on both sides of the aisle, they're not.

That's why no longer participate in, or donate to, campaigns to keep abortion safe and legal. I don't even click "like" for these organizations on Facebook.  

Not that I don't support keeping abortion safe and legal, but younger women have sent a very clear message to older women that they want nothing to do with feminism and if abortion isn't a feminist issue than nothing is. I've heard more than once that feminism is a dinosaur anyway because "all the battles have been won", and I'm quite willing to bow to the superior wisdom and experience of 20somethings on that score.  If they turn out to be wrong about all the battles being won it will be a rude shock and might wake them up -- or it might not, as long as they still get to shave their legs -- but they won't want any input from older women anyway.  So to hell with it.  

Remember now, I'm just expressing my views like everybody else here.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2011, 10:53:37 am »
Anyone heard of the Full Quiver movement?  They believe in having a "full quiver" of children: an archery metaphor, meaning as many children as the woman's body can produce.  Their website's Articles section includes a paragraph from a Newsweek story:

Quote
It’s hardly a typical scene from the suburbs. The Bortel home outside San Antonio, Tex., counts 12 members—parents David and Suzanne and their 10 children, ranging from 13 months to 15 (the 20-year-old married and moved away)—all crammed into a four-bedroom house that trembles constantly with activity. Everything revolves around the home: Dad works there, the kids are schooled there, the youngest three were born there.

From this account, Mrs. Bortel would have had an average of one pregnancy every two years for a period of two decades. Or looking at it another way -- pregnant for 9 out of every 24 months.

Other links on their site: "The Army of God" (video clips from FOX via Rachel Scott, "subscriber and author of the book 'Birthing God's Mighty Warriors' ", "Birth Dearth" (the planet is underpopulated), "Counter-Contraception", "When Your Quiver Overflows (from The Patriarch's Path by Mrs. Stacy McDonald)" and "Ten Great Reasons To Have Another Child", by Steve Mosher.



Its mirror image is the "No Longer Quivering" group, comprised of women who have left the movement, some after years of serial pregnancies had ruined their health. Their website has a number of more memoirs, some about the Quiverfull movement and others about this kind of "traditional" family life in general,  at http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/


The site recommends three books:


Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters by Hillary McFarland


Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce.

Probably feminist lesbian witches, the lot of 'em !
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 01:57:05 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2011, 10:58:44 am »
Anyone heard of the Full Quiver movement?  They believe in having a "full quiver" of children: an archery metaphor, meaning as many children as the woman's body can produce.  Their website's Articles section includes a paragraph from a Newsweek story:

From this account, Mrs. Bortel would have had an average of one pregnancy every two years for a period of two decades.

Other links on their site: "The Army of God" (video clips from FOX via Rachel Scott, "subscriber and author of the book 'Birthing God's Mighty Warriors' ", "Birth Dearth" (the planet is underpopulated), "Counter-Contraception", "When Your Quiver Overflows (from The Patriarch's Path by Mrs. Stacy McDonald)" and "Ten Great Reasons To Have Another Child", by Steve Mosher.



Its mirror image is the "No Longer Quivering" group, comprised of women who have left the movement, some after years of serial pregnancies had ruined their health. Their website has a number of more memoirs, some about the Quiverfull movement and others about this kind of "traditional" family life in general,  at http://nolongerquivering.com/nlqstories/


The site recommends three books:


Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment' by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters by Hillary McFarland


Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement by Kathryn Joyce.

Probably feminist lesbian witches, the lot of 'em !


There is a "reality tv" show that follows one such family.  They are the Duggars, and the show is called 19 Kids & Counting".  I also believe all the kids' names start with "j".




Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2011, 11:28:20 am »
That's why no longer participate in, or donate to, campaigns to keep abortion safe and legal. I don't even click "like" for these organizations on Facebook.  

Not that I don't support keeping abortion safe and legal, but younger women have sent a very clear message to older women that they want nothing to do with feminism. I've heard that feminism is a dinosaur anyway because "all the battles have been won" more than once, and I'm quite willing to bow to the superior wisdom and experience of 20somethings.  If they turn out to be wrong about all the battles being won it will be a rude shock and might wake them up -- or it might not, as long as they still get to shave their legs -- but they won't want any input from older women anyway.  So to hell with it.

Some websites about/by young feminists:

http://feministing.com/

http://www.thedailyfemme.com/femme/

http://www.now.org/programs/yf/taskforce/

http://bitchmagazine.org/

http://jezebel.com/

Just to clarify my own views, I was referring to some young women, not all or even necessarily a majority. And I meant that they disliked the word "feminist," not the principles behind it. Years on years ago, I talked to Kim Gandy, who later became president of NOW, about this very issue. Her take was that many or most young women actually were feminists, whether they embraced the word or not.

That said, there are plenty of young women who have no problem whatsoever with the word and very actively support women's rights. I do not agree that "younger women have sent a very clear message to older women" that they don't believe in equal rights or think all the battles have been won.

Here's one BetterMost woman, not in her 20s, explaining why she believes in equal rights for women but doesn't consider herself a feminist: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,32656.msg488241.html#msg488241
 
Quote
Remember now, I'm just expressing my views like everybody else here.

Obviously. That's what we're here for.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2011, 11:30:20 am »
There is a "reality tv" show that follows one such family.  They are the Duggars, and the show is called 19 Kids & Counting".  I also believe all the kids' names start with "j"

I once heard from a therapist that having all the kids' names start with the same letter can be a red flag for sexual abuse.



Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #60 on: September 19, 2011, 12:15:18 pm »
I am truly alarmed to hear about this full quiver movement because I think my daughter and niece are both caught up in it. There are quite a few young women who think feminism is a bunch of hooey and the best route is to get a good husband, be a housewife, and never have to work at a job. What about when you realize you're trapped in servitude when you have a half dozen kids and you're not even 30?
May 2019 be better for us all.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #61 on: September 19, 2011, 12:26:28 pm »
Quivering Daughters by Hillary McFarland

Sounds like the title of a porn flick. ...  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #62 on: September 19, 2011, 01:47:21 pm »


Here's one BetterMost woman, not in her 20s, explaining why she believes in equal rights for women but doesn't consider herself a feminist: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,32656.msg488241.html#msg488241
 

Yes, I've known Louise (on the internet) for some time.  And she can bloody well look after herself.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #63 on: September 19, 2011, 01:48:12 pm »
Sounds like the title of a porn flick. ...  8)

Well, after the 18th or 19th kid, they might need a little variety to get the 20th Blessed Event off the ground.  


Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2011, 01:52:02 pm »
I am truly alarmed to hear about this full quiver movement because I think my daughter and niece are both caught up in it. There are quite a few young women who think feminism is a bunch of hooey and the best route is to get a good husband, be a housewife, and never have to work at a job. What about when you realize you're trapped in servitude when you have a half dozen kids and you're not even 30?


About the part of your post I bolded:

That's exactly right, but it has family and social implications as well.  There's nothing more effective for keeping women in general and families in particular in their place like having more children than they can support.  High birthrates are one of the best vehicles for regressive social engineering there is.

Sorry to hear about your daughter and niece -- I hope they get some better information.  {{ hugs }}

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2011, 01:55:04 pm »
Marcia! Are you saying Santa Claus doesn't exist? 

Depends on who's your daddy.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #66 on: September 19, 2011, 02:12:55 pm »
I am truly alarmed to hear about this full quiver movement because I think my daughter and niece are both caught up in it. There are quite a few young women who think feminism is a bunch of hooey and the best route is to get a good husband, be a housewife, and never have to work at a job. What about when you realize you're trapped in servitude when you have a half dozen kids and you're not even 30?


Parenthood is now the equivalent of servitude? I guess if we're all gonna be "free" the species will have to die out.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #67 on: September 19, 2011, 02:14:50 pm »
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #68 on: September 19, 2011, 02:16:30 pm »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #69 on: September 19, 2011, 02:17:23 pm »
Yes, I've known Louise (on the internet) for some time.  And she can bloody well look after herself.

Of course you do, and of course she can. I know her on the internet as well as in Real Life™, and can verify that in both venues Louise is quite capable and self-sufficient.

You sound angry about something or other, or so I gather from your use of "bloody well" as an adverb. But once again, I don't really know what you're getting at. Are you saying that Louise need not call herself a feminist because she can bloody well look after herself (requiring no help from feminism), or that by linking to her post I am implying she can not bloody well look after herself well enough to provide her own link? If it's the latter, is it your opinion that providing a link to other people's germane writing on a topic implies some sort of assumed helplessness on the part of the person who is linked? That would be a notion I haven't encountered before on the internet, where links to other writing are actually quite common. Me, I generally like it when someone provides a link to something I have written, and don't take it to mean the linker considers me incapable of bloody well looking after myself.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #70 on: September 19, 2011, 02:27:12 pm »
Parenthood is now the equivalent of servitude? I guess if we're all gonna be "free" the species will have to die out.

Although I realize that Front-Ranger can bloody well look after herself, I'm going to barge in and suggest that it seems you've missed her point. She wasn't talking about parenthood in general. As her quote plainly says, she's referring to a hypothetical woman who has half a dozen kids before she's 30. And yes, providing unpaid caregiving for that many kids rather than being able to support oneself through paid employment can resemble servitude, for reasons I (or she) can outline further if they don't seem obvious.

The birthrate required to keep the population stable, I was just reading yesterday, is 2.1 kids per woman. So it's quite possible for a woman to have fewer than six children without the species dying out.

 

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #71 on: September 19, 2011, 02:47:57 pm »
Thanks, serious, and let me also add some more info from my daughter's experience. Her husband doesn't allow disposable diapers so she does laundry every day, including many cloth diapers. Child care is the bailiwik of the wife, so she goes everywhere carrying a child and a heavy diaper bag, even when she and her husband are going to a ball game (and during the game, the child sits on the wife's lap, with the diaper bag at her feet). Maintaining the home is the bailiwik of the wife, so on weekends my daughter cooks and cleans while her husband plays video games on his computer. The husband doesn't allow conveniences, so my daughter doesn't even have a microwave oven!! And now he's talking about selling her car, because she, being a housewife, "doesn't need a car."

And she only has one child so far!! When asked how many children they expect to have, the husband answers (without allowing his wife to have a say) "As many as God will give us."   :-\
May 2019 be better for us all.

Offline louisev

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #72 on: September 19, 2011, 03:12:48 pm »
did somebody mention me?

 :o
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2011, 03:30:55 pm »
did somebody mention me?

 :o

Yep.  ;D ;)

In a nice way, of course.  :D



Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2011, 03:31:42 pm »
Thanks, serious, and let me also add some more info from my daughter's experience. Her husband doesn't allow disposable diapers so she does laundry every day, including many cloth diapers. Child care is the bailiwik of the wife, so she goes everywhere carrying a child and a heavy diaper bag, even when she and her husband are going to a ball game (and during the game, the child sits on the wife's lap, with the diaper bag at her feet). Maintaining the home is the bailiwik of the wife, so on weekends my daughter cooks and cleans while her husband plays video games on his computer. The husband doesn't allow conveniences, so my daughter doesn't even have a microwave oven!! And now he's talking about selling her car, because she, being a housewife, "doesn't need a car."

And she only has one child so far!! When asked how many children they expect to have, the husband answers (without allowing his wife to have a say) "As many as God will give us."   :-\

Its such an individualized thing. Couple A might be able to have lots of children, and still live the life they want to live. Couple B's lifestyle might only have room for 1 or 2 children.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2011, 03:45:26 pm »
Thanks, serious, and let me also add some more info from my daughter's experience. Her husband doesn't allow disposable diapers so she does laundry every day, including many cloth diapers. Child care is the bailiwik of the wife, so she goes everywhere carrying a child and a heavy diaper bag, even when she and her husband are going to a ball game (and during the game, the child sits on the wife's lap, with the diaper bag at her feet). Maintaining the home is the bailiwik of the wife, so on weekends my daughter cooks and cleans while her husband plays video games on his computer. The husband doesn't allow conveniences, so my daughter doesn't even have a microwave oven!! And now he's talking about selling her car, because she, being a housewife, "doesn't need a car."

And she only has one child so far!! When asked how many children they expect to have, the husband answers (without allowing his wife to have a say) "As many as God will give us."   :-\

Lee, I don't want to criticize your daughter or her choices, but this makes me sad. When I met your daughter, she impressed me as a bright, independent-minded young woman. I hope things work out for her.


Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2011, 03:56:26 pm »
Thanks, serious, and let me also add some more info from my daughter's experience. Her husband doesn't allow disposable diapers so she does laundry every day, including many cloth diapers. Child care is the bailiwik of the wife, so she goes everywhere carrying a child and a heavy diaper bag, even when she and her husband are going to a ball game (and during the game, the child sits on the wife's lap, with the diaper bag at her feet). Maintaining the home is the bailiwik of the wife, so on weekends my daughter cooks and cleans while her husband plays video games on his computer. The husband doesn't allow conveniences, so my daughter doesn't even have a microwave oven!! And now he's talking about selling her car, because she, being a housewife, "doesn't need a car."

And she only has one child so far!! When asked how many children they expect to have, the husband answers (without allowing his wife to have a say) "As many as God will give us."   :-\
:-\


Jeeeze...I hope things will improve. "As many as God will give us" my ass.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2011, 04:09:19 pm »
Her husband doesn't allow disposable diapers so she does laundry every day, including many cloth diapers.

But aren't reusable diapers better for the environment?  ???
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2011, 04:33:34 pm »
But aren't reusable diapers better for the environment?  ???

Actually, that's debatable. Reusable diapers require a lot of water and, unless you're Alma, electricity and/or gas. However, I think I've read that they are slightly better for the environment, but not as much as you'd think. Most parents these days use disposable diapers (I did).

But beyond that, unfortunately people (including myself) do all kinds of things that aren't ideal for the environment for the sake of convenience. They drink bottled water, buy food in Styrofoam packages, drive cars when they could walk or bike or use public transportation, etc. So for many people, environmental friendliness is not the only, or even the top, priority.

I think it's admirable if parents decide to use reusable diapers to save space in landfills. But IMO the decision should be a joint one, at the very least reflecting the preference of the person(s) who do(es) the laundry.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2011, 05:40:20 pm »
But aren't reusable diapers better for the environment?  ???

Not really.  As was posted, they require a lot of water to wash, soap to get clean and bleach to get the bacteria out.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2011, 05:41:52 pm »
Parenthood is now the equivalent of servitude? I guess if we're all gonna be "free" the species will have to die out.

6 billion people on the planet and climbing...I daresay we can drop the birthrate to zero world-wide for several generations before we have start to worry about such things.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2011, 05:44:44 pm »
6 billion people on the planet and climbing...I daresay we can drop the birthrate to zero world-wide for several generations before we have start to worry about such things.

Except those of us who would like to have a workforce around for the next few decades to help subsidize our Social Security checks and massive health-care bills.



Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2011, 06:12:11 pm »
Except those of us who would like to have a workforce around for the next few decades to help subsidize our Social Security checks and massive health-care bills.




Less people for more jobs means we can demand higher salaries.  Higher salaries, larger taxes.  It works out.  ;D

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #83 on: September 19, 2011, 06:19:59 pm »
:-\
Jeeeze...I hope things will improve. "As many as God will give us" my ass.

Ditto.   :-\  Such men are always really good about how many children "God will give us", when they don't have to mess with the children.

Letting God do his will is basically letting nature take its course.  If it meant his death or his health was at risk, I daresay he'd interrupt God's will with medical treatment and surgery, but not when it comes to family planning and birth control.

Wonder why that is?  >:(

I'm so so sorry Lee that you find your daughter married to a man whose attitude harkens back to the 16th century and Martin Luther who famously said,

"If they [women] become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there."

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #84 on: September 19, 2011, 06:40:26 pm »
I think it's admirable if parents decide to use reusable diapers to save space in landfills.

That's what I was thinking, reusable/cloth diapers not creating as much trash as disposables. Water is a renewable resource (except maybe in Texas right now  :( ), and it's possible to use environmentally friendly soap. There is, of course, the question of power used to heat the water and run an automatic machine.

I sure hope Lee's daughter doesn't have to use a warshboard!  :o

But this is really OT, so let be, let be.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #85 on: September 19, 2011, 06:52:41 pm »
Less people for more jobs means we can demand higher salaries.  Higher salaries, larger taxes.  It works out.  ;D

Not necessarily. I'm talking about when all the baby boomers are retired (the first of them are just retiring now). Setting aside medical care, retired people buy fewer goods and services. Thus, consumer demand shrinks along with the workforce. Jobs shrink along with consumer demand. So there are fewer people for fewer jobs, paying less in taxes, yet more people requiring the government support their taxes provide, in the form of Social Security and Medicare.

I happened to be gathering statistics on this very subject just last week for a project at work.  :)




Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #86 on: September 19, 2011, 06:56:49 pm »
That's what I was thinking, reusable/cloth diapers not creating as much trash as disposables. Water is a renewable resource (except maybe in Texas right now  :( ), and it's possible to use environmentally friendly soap. There is, of course, the question of power used to heat the water and run an automatic machine.

I sure hope Lee's daughter doesn't have to use a warshboard!  :o

But this is really OT, so let be, let be.

Fresh water isn't a renewable resource.  It takes a lot of money and power and chemicals to make polluted water drinkable.  The aquifers under the country are being sucked dry as we speak.  Usually, they are renewed by precipitation soaking into the ground and filling up the underground aquifers, but technology has allowed people to live so far north, that those in the north are pumping water out of the aquifers before it gets a chance to fill up sufficiently for people further south to use it.  People down south have to drill further and further down to get to it.  Water is wasted tremendously in evaporation watering crops grown by irrigation in desert regions - I can't tell you how I cringe every time I see those glorious water fountains in Las Vegas.  California also has sporadic droughts and their population is enormous.  I believe northern Georgia ran dry last year.  In Texas, we're in the middle of the worst drought in decades, and even when we didn't have this dry spell, city planners had already predicted decades ago that the burgeoning new suburbs didn't have enough fresh water sources to supply their populations and they were going to have to buy water from other cities.  You'd think the government would step in and limit building to keep the population moving to these areas from growing beyond the ability of their water sources, but they didn't.

It is not as plentiful a resource as one might imagine.  

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #87 on: September 19, 2011, 06:58:07 pm »
Not necessarily. I'm talking about when all the baby boomers are retired (the first of them are just retiring now). Setting aside medical care, retired people buy fewer goods and services. Thus, consumer demand shrinks along with the workforce. Jobs shrink along with consumer demand. So there are fewer people for fewer jobs, paying less in taxes, yet more people requiring the government support their taxes provide, in the form of Social Security and Medicare.

I happened to be gathering statistics on this very subject just last week for a project at work.  :)

What makes you think many of the baby boomers will get to retire?  Many lost their retirement in the crash and will have to keep working another decade - if they can keep their jobs.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #88 on: September 19, 2011, 08:17:53 pm »
What makes you think many of the baby boomers will get to retire?  Many lost their retirement in the crash and will have to keep working another decade - if they can keep their jobs.

Sure, but eventually they'll either retire or be too sick to work or be dead. The sad facts of mortality. They may work longer than their parents did, but nobody works forever. And your post to which I was originally responding mentioned "several generations" -- i.e., approximately 60 years.

Meanwhile, many of the baby boomers I know are being laid off, thus forced into retirement in their late 50s or early 60s.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #89 on: September 19, 2011, 10:21:58 pm »
Fresh water isn't a renewable resource.

Yes, it is. It isn't necessarily where people want it--and perhaps you missed my parenthetical comment about Texas, which was not meant as a joke--but the total amount of water on the planet is not diminishing. It's easier to clean up water than it is to go on indefinitely taking up land to bury poopie disposable diapers.

I agree with you about the fountains in Las Vegas. I also remember when people moved to the Southwest to escape the flora and climate of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and instead they've just replicated that flora in the Southwest (lawns, plants not native to the area), and it takes water to do that. That was just plain stupid.

But ill-advised and stupid misuse of water resources by ill-advised and stupid people does not mean that water is not a renewable resource. As long as rain continues on the planet, water will be a renewable resource.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2011, 10:33:05 pm »
Yes, it is. It isn't necessarily where people want it--and perhaps you missed my parenthetical comment about Texas, which was not meant as a joke--but the total amount of water on the planet is not diminishing. It's easier to clean up water than it is to go on indefinitely taking up land to bury poopie disposable diapers.

I agree with you about the fountains in Las Vegas. I also remember when people moved to the Southwest to escape the flora and climate of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and instead they've just replicated that flora in the Southwest (lawns, plants not native to the area), and it takes water to do that. That was just plain stupid.

But ill-advised and stupid misuse of water resources by ill-advised and stupid people does not mean that water is not a renewable resource. As long as rain continues on the planet, water will be a renewable resource.

Yeah, I've always thought that was a misunderstood problem. I can see why it's not wise to waste water in the West. But in Minnesota, Land of 10,000 Lakes (and actually more than that), it always seems like kind of a non-issue.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #91 on: September 19, 2011, 10:51:28 pm »
Fresh water isn't a renewable resource.

Nuclear reactors are used to de-salinize sea water in some places.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #92 on: September 19, 2011, 10:57:44 pm »
Letting God do his will is basically letting nature take its course.  If it meant his death or his health was at risk, I daresay he'd interrupt God's will with medical treatment and surgery, but not when it comes to family planning and birth control.

LOL!!!

Del, men have been putting themselves at personal risk in a multitude of ways for humanity's entire history in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country, and family. So I don't think men would shirk the responsibility of bearing children if that were the case. Honorable men would step up to the plate and do what was needed.  
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2011, 12:08:49 am »
LOL!!!

Del, men have been putting themselves at personal risk in a multitude of ways for humanity's entire history in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country, and family. So I don't think men would shirk the responsibility of bearing children if that were the case. Honorable men would step up to the plate and do what was needed.

 

LOL, indeed.

Milo, up until about the past century, women of childbearing age had a much higher mortality rate than men. Can you guess why? Yep, that's right, they were putting themselves at personal risk in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country and family.

Still, men's life expectancies -- especially in older age groups -- weren't always dramatically higher, despite their lower mortality rate in childbearing years. Why not? Says Wikipedia: "Traditional arguments tend to favor socio-environmental factors: historically, men have generally consumed more tobacco, alcohol and drugs than females in most societies, and are more likely to die from many associated diseases such as lung cancer, tuberculosis and cirrhosis of the liver."



Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #94 on: September 20, 2011, 12:24:44 am »
LOL, indeed.

Milo, up until about the past century, women of childbearing age had a much higher mortality rate than men. Can you guess why? Yep, that's right, they were putting themselves at personal risk in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country and family.

Still, men's life expectancies -- especially in older age groups -- weren't always dramatically higher, despite their lower mortality rate in childbearing years. Why not? Says Wikipedia: "Traditional arguments tend to favor socio-environmental factors: historically, men have generally consumed more tobacco, alcohol and drugs than females in most societies, and are more likely to die from many associated diseases such as lung cancer, tuberculosis and cirrhosis of the liver."

I get that. What Del is saying is that men wouldn't man-up if they had to bear children, and my point is that the history of men putting themselves at personal risk for the greater good suggests otherwise Hunting large mammals, defense, and working with potentially deadly machinery has been putting men at personal risk far more often than once every 9 months.
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Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #95 on: September 20, 2011, 12:37:42 am »
LOL!!!

Del, men have been putting themselves at personal risk in a multitude of ways for humanity's entire history in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country, and family. So I don't think men would shirk the responsibility of bearing children if that were the case. Honorable men would step up to the plate and do what was needed.  
We were talking about a specific case here, Milo. ´


Besides, men can´t bear children so it must be up to the woman to decide how many kids she wants to have. Alma had a point  O0
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 04:16:06 am by Buffymon »

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #96 on: September 20, 2011, 06:03:10 am »
You sound angry about something or other, or so I gather from your use of "bloody well" as an adverb. But once again, I don't really know what you're getting at. Are you saying that Louise need not call herself a feminist because she can bloody well look after herself (requiring no help from feminism), or that by linking to her post I am implying she can not bloody well look after herself well enough to provide her own link? If it's the latter, is it your opinion that providing a link to other people's germane writing on a topic implies some sort of assumed helplessness on the part of the person who is linked? That would be a notion I haven't encountered before on the internet, where links to other writing are actually quite common. Me, I generally like it when someone provides a link to something I have written, and don't take it to mean the linker considers me incapable of bloody well looking after myself.

I gather you’d like a clarification, so here it is:

I mean that women who have benefitted from over 150 years of feminism, a legacy left to them by women who faced jail, ostracism and assaults just to be able to vote let alone anything else pertaining to women’s rights, but who coyly tell you that ‘I believe in equal rights but I’m not a feminist, you betcha’ deserve no concern from feminists on any occasion they have to deal with sexism.  

If a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, or needs to terminate an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy, and she doesn’t have to resort to Preggers Roulette (a/k/a ‘natural family planning’) or a coat hangar, she’s benefitting from feminism, however put off she might be that some feminists don’t shave their legs.  Same goes for a woman who uses a credit card, who buys a house or car in her own name, who becomes a doctor or attorney or is able to divorce an abusive husband.  That’s a legacy that many women, and some far-sighted men, worked and sacrificed for and those people deserve better than to be blown off by those who have benefitted.

It’s a little like your car breaking down on a dark, isolated road in a cold rain and a truck driver picks you up.  He calls a tow truck to take your car to the nearest truck stop and gives you a ride there with the heater in the truck cab going full blast, and even offers to buy you a meal while your car is being repaired.  But on arrival, you tell him that you appreciate his help and you’ll definitely accept the offer of a meal, but can he please sit at a separate table and not let on that you’re with him?  After all, his shoes are muddy and he isn’t exactly young and cute so of course you don’t want to be seen with him; you have your image to think of – surely he understands, right?  

So no, I don’t respect that “I’m not a feminist” song and dance, and women past their 20s have even less justification for it than younger women.  They should know better; be they active on Bettermost or otherwise.  In that context I’d have more respect for women in the “full quiver” movement – they might be rejecting feminism but they’re at least being honest and consistent about it.  They’re not mooching off the efforts of women they openly despise.  And on occasions that women who are doing that find out that OMG, sexism isn’t dead after all and not all the battles have been won – well, they’ll have to deal with that on their own.  After all, that’s what they want.

All that said,, I did find the first post you directed me to unintentionally funny.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #97 on: September 20, 2011, 06:10:58 am »
Less people for more jobs means we can demand higher salaries.  Higher salaries, larger taxes.  It works out.  ;D

But I wonder how many people do have kids as part of their investment and retirement portfolio.  That would be an interesting question for Dave Ramsey to answer. 

I'm not being facetious.  In the good ol' days that Ron Paul wants to take us back to (e.g., Galveston in 1900), it was a common practice to take in a foster child to use as a free servant. 

Marge_Innavera

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #98 on: September 20, 2011, 06:13:07 am »

Letting God do his will is basically letting nature take its course.  If it meant his death or his health was at risk, I daresay he'd interrupt God's will with medical treatment and surgery, but not when it comes to family planning and birth control.

Some animals 'know' better than peoiple in that respect.  Hens won't even lay eggs when the conditions aren't favorable for the babies' survival.  Nature doesn't necessarily go gaga over quantity in reproduction, at least not with mammals.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #99 on: September 20, 2011, 07:52:54 am »
Besides, men can´t bear children so it must be up to the woman to decide how many kids she wants to have. Alma had a point  O0

I would hope that a husband and wife would do the family planning together.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #100 on: September 20, 2011, 08:09:39 am »
I gather you’d like a clarification, so here it is:

I mean that women who have benefitted from over 150 years of feminism, a legacy left to them by women who faced jail, ostracism and assaults just to be able to vote let alone anything else pertaining to women’s rights, but who coyly tell you that ‘I believe in equal rights but I’m not a feminist, you betcha’ deserve no concern from feminists on any occasion they have to deal with sexism.  

If a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, or needs to terminate an unwanted or dangerous pregnancy, and she doesn’t have to resort to Preggers Roulette (a/k/a ‘natural family planning’) or a coat hangar, she’s benefitting from feminism, however put off she might be that some feminists don’t shave their legs.  Same goes for a woman who uses a credit card, who buys a house or car in her own name, who becomes a doctor or attorney or is able to divorce an abusive husband.  That’s a legacy that many women, and some far-sighted men, worked and sacrificed for and those people deserve better than to be blown off by those who have benefitted.

It’s a little like your car breaking down on a dark, isolated road in a cold rain and a truck driver picks you up.  He calls a tow truck to take your car to the nearest truck stop and gives you a ride there with the heater in the truck cab going full blast, and even offers to buy you a meal while your car is being repaired.  But on arrival, you tell him that you appreciate his help and you’ll definitely accept the offer of a meal, but can he please sit at a separate table and not let on that you’re with him?  After all, his shoes are muddy and he isn’t exactly young and cute so of course you don’t want to be seen with him; you have your image to think of – surely he understands, right?

OK, thank you, that is much clearer. And well stated. For the most part, I agree.

My one difference would be that IMO, women are either equal or they're not. I don't think I would choose whether to be concerned about some woman's particular situation based on her prior commitment to the cause. If a woman got fired due to sexism, for example, I wouldn't demand that she show me her feminist card before I decided where I stood on her case.

To me, it's mostly semantic whether you call yourself a feminist or a suffragist or a women's libber or an "I'm for equal rights but." But you're right, the reason women live the way they do today is entirely thanks to feminism, whatever word it was going by at the time. All women today should be thankful to the extremely brave and persistent feminists who came before them (and who weren't working, BTW, only on behalf of women who agreed with them).


« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 09:39:14 am by serious crayons »

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #101 on: September 20, 2011, 09:32:11 am »
For the record, I am a feminist and I shave my legs.

Now, going back to these new (or recycled) views of Christianity, when my daughter decided to get married at the tender age of 22, I told her, "It's okay with me if you marry young, but please wait to have children at least a year or two. Have fun, get to know each other better." I do know that she met with her doctor about birth control and got protection...not pills though. But, she returned from the honeymoon pregnant. When I asked what happened, she just said something vague like "these things happen." Well, I'm afraid that "these things" are going to happen every year of her life if it goes the way her husband plans.  :-\
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #102 on: September 20, 2011, 10:15:23 am »
Well, I'm afraid that "these things" are going to happen every year of her life if it goes the way her husband plans.  :-\

Her husband will learn soon enough that a paycheck can put food into only so many mouths.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #103 on: September 20, 2011, 10:16:04 am »
As I stated in my original post in the Feminism thread, my issues with feminism are not human rights issues, they are philosophical issues based upon a view of society that I believe is distorted.  I am not arguing that sexism does not exist, however, I do not accept the view of philosophical feminists who state that there is a conscious war against women by men to keep them subjugated, and that all men oppress all women.  I just don't, and I have seen and known enough men to support my view.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #104 on: September 20, 2011, 12:09:32 pm »
A long time ago I attended a talk by Paul Hawken at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science, where one of the topics was overpopulation. Paul showed a video of the globe, with population centers as lights, then put it through a fast forward from 1900 to the present. It truly took my breath away to see how lit up the globe was, and this was at least ten years ago.

I still remember one comforting thing he said. In all species, the females know instinctively how to deal with overpopulation. They will cease going into estrus, spontaneously abort or in some cases kill and even eat the young. This concept was also discussed in the story Watership Down. When the rabbit warren became overpopulated, fetuses were reabsorbed into the females' bodies before they developed and were born.

This preventive measure was observed in all different kinds of species, Hawken said. But in homo sapiens?? Do females still hold the key to avoiding disastrous overpopulation??
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2011, 01:58:24 pm »
As I stated in my original post in the Feminism thread, my issues with feminism are not human rights issues, they are philosophical issues based upon a view of society that I believe is distorted.  I am not arguing that sexism does not exist, however, I do not accept the view of philosophical feminists who state that there is a conscious war against women by men to keep them subjugated, and that all men oppress all women.  I just don't, and I have seen and known enough men to support my view.

I know there are a few feminists who think that way, but the majority do not. I sure don't, and I don't know any feminists who does.

Society as a whole, not men exclusively, and certainly not "all men," is to blame for the subjugation and oppression of women. Though that subjugation has, historically, tended to privilege men, it has also -- as you pointed out in your post on the Feminism thread -- been taught and reinforced by women. (Though unlike you, I don't consider women "at the leading edge of the opposition" to equality. If I had to blame one sex or another, I would not hesitate to place more of the blame on men.)

As for feminism, the Merriam-Webster definition is simple, to the point and, in my view, accurate.

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests




Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2011, 02:07:34 pm »
I still remember one comforting thing he said. In all species, the females know instinctively how to deal with overpopulation. They will cease going into estrus, spontaneously abort or in some cases kill and even eat the young. This concept was also discussed in the story Watership Down. When the rabbit warren became overpopulated, fetuses were reabsorbed into the females' bodies before they developed and were born.

This preventive measure was observed in all different kinds of species, Hawken said. But in homo sapiens?? Do females still hold the key to avoiding disastrous overpopulation??

Sometimes I have wondered whether it's not just a coincidence that certain cultural changes whose byproducts include a lowered birthrate -- women entering the work force in record numbers, the development of more effective birth control, the gay rights movement, women marrying at older ages and putting off having children until they're older -- came at about the same time that people began worrying about overpopulation. Nature works in mysterious ways!


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2011, 02:38:12 pm »
Sometimes I have wondered whether it's not just a coincidence that certain cultural changes whose byproducts include a lowered birthrate -- women entering the work force in record numbers, the development of more effective birth control, the gay rights movement, women marrying at older ages and putting off having children until they're older -- came at about the same time that people began worrying about overpopulation. Nature works in mysterious ways!

Some people think that homosexuality might be a natural population control element. But I don't see how the gay rights movement would contribute to population control. Especially since gays have been making their own babies lately.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2011, 02:40:37 pm »
As for feminism, the Merriam-Webster definition is simple, to the point and, in my view, accurate.

1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes

2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests


Interesting. Social equality is part of the definition, but legal equality is not.
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Offline louisev

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #109 on: September 20, 2011, 03:28:47 pm »
I think that's what 'political' means in this context, Milo.

Katherine,  if that were organized feminism's definition of feminism, maybe I would be one.  But I have read feminist theorists recently and it goes much, much MUCH deeper than that. 
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2011, 03:47:06 pm »
Interesting. Social equality is part of the definition, but legal equality is not.

Legality is implicit in both definitions.

In the first definition, laws are used to protect political, economic and social equality, or at least the first two. For example, if laws are required to insure that the sexes receive equal economic treatment -- for example, in the workplace -- then feminism would call for them.

The second definition applies to "organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests." The word "rights" is generally understood to include legal rights.

In other words, it's not about legal vs. social equality. It's just plain equality -- a broader concept than what you're suggesting, with some aspects that are subject to legal controls and some that aren't.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2011, 04:00:47 pm »
Katherine,  if that were organized feminism's definition of feminism, maybe I would be one.  But I have read feminist theorists recently and it goes much, much MUCH deeper than that. 

Oh, I know; I've read some of those theorists, too. But I don't grant any particular individual or theorist the right to speak for all of feminism. As for "organized feminism," what is that? I'm a feminist, but I don't belong to any organization.

For example, feminist Andrea Dworkin, to quote Wikipedia, "argues that all heterosexual sex in our patriarchal society is coercive and degrading to women, and sexual penetration may by its very nature doom women to inferiority and submission." Does Andrea Dworkin get to establish the rules, and does that mean if I have sex with a man I have to turn in my feminist card? Or could it just mean Andrea Dworkin and I are two feminists who disagree about some things?

Feminists disagree about all kinds of things. Sometimes they're in diametric opposition. Neither "side" necessarily represents "feminism" as a whole.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2011, 07:06:07 pm »
Sure, but eventually they'll either retire or be too sick to work or be dead. The sad facts of mortality. They may work longer than their parents did, but nobody works forever. And your post to which I was originally responding mentioned "several generations" -- i.e., approximately 60 years.

Meanwhile, many of the baby boomers I know are being laid off, thus forced into retirement in their late 50s or early 60s.

But they still pay taxes even on pensions and dividends.  Those who are below the poverty line don't.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2011, 07:13:56 pm »
Yes, it is. It isn't necessarily where people want it--and perhaps you missed my parenthetical comment about Texas, which was not meant as a joke--but the total amount of water on the planet is not diminishing. It's easier to clean up water than it is to go on indefinitely taking up land to bury poopie disposable diapers.

I agree with you about the fountains in Las Vegas. I also remember when people moved to the Southwest to escape the flora and climate of the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic, and instead they've just replicated that flora in the Southwest (lawns, plants not native to the area), and it takes water to do that. That was just plain stupid.

But ill-advised and stupid misuse of water resources by ill-advised and stupid people does not mean that water is not a renewable resource. As long as rain continues on the planet, water will be a renewable resource.

No, aquifers do run dry, Jeff.  My ecology professors were talking about this years ago.  As one article puts it, it's an impending 'tragedy of the commons' situation. 

http://www.aolnews.com/2010/04/20/time-water-running-out-for-americas-biggest-aquifer/
http://www.naturalnews.com/031658_aquifer_depletion_Ogallala.html
http://www.economist.com/node/17199914

And I think you missed my point - sure we can clean up our polluted water...but at what cost?  How many chemicals and water purification plants are needed?  Desalinating water is also extremely power expensive.  Our infrastructure has become so expensive to upkeep that we can't afford to fix our bridges until they start to - or actually - fall down and now, because we can't be reasonable about our water needs we're just going to wait until we have to pay a fortune for water as well?

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2011, 07:19:49 pm »
LOL!!!

Del, men have been putting themselves at personal risk in a multitude of ways for humanity's entire history in order to ensure the survival of the species, tribe, country, and family. So I don't think men would shirk the responsibility of bearing children if that were the case. Honorable men would step up to the plate and do what was needed.  

Wow, everyone took this and ran with it before I could come in here and clarify.  I meant in Lee's daughter's situation, specifically, and a great many men in reality.  THEY don't have to care for the children, not when they hew to the 'men work, women childcare' model.  They don't share in the daily grind of cleaning, feeding, clothing, up middle of the night feedings/holding hands nightmares/sick care, carting and hauling the children around to do the domestic errands.  If they did, suddenly they'd not be quite so anxious to have as many as 'god wills it'.

True story:

A young child-bride responded with the exact same pious words when her doctor asked her if she wanted birth control right before her wedding.

He replied dryly, "Honey, if you're a healthy woman, you'll have a child for every year of your marriage."

She took the birth control pills.  Her wry comment years later, "I was young, not stupid."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2011, 08:10:02 pm »
But they still pay taxes even on pensions and dividends.  Those who are below the poverty line don't.

Yeah, but their average income is a lot smaller than the average income of working people. And if their retirement accounts are Roth IRAs, they don't pay taxes on the dividends or distributions.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2011, 08:11:41 pm »
Yeah, but their income is a lot smaller than it was when they were working. And if their retirement accounts are Roth IRAs, they don't have to pay taxes on them at all.

But there will be less population that will be supported by their taxes.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2011, 08:14:31 pm »
But there will be less population that will be supported by their taxes.

No, that's what I'm saying. Health care for elderly people is one of government's biggest expenses. As baby boomers get old, that will skyrocket. The population will gradually shrink, but the elderly population specifically will be increasing for the next 30 to 50 years.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2011, 08:35:51 pm »
For example, feminist Andrea Dworkin, to quote Wikipedia, "argues that all heterosexual sex in our patriarchal society is coercive and degrading to women, and sexual penetration may by its very nature doom women to inferiority and submission."

Gee, I bet she's a laugh a minute at parties. ...   8)
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Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #119 on: September 21, 2011, 12:29:02 am »
Desalinating water is also extremely power expensive.

All they do is run it close enough to the reactor core to make it boil.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline Monika

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #120 on: September 21, 2011, 12:50:58 am »
I think that's what 'political' means in this context, Milo.

Katherine,  if that were organized feminism's definition of feminism, maybe I would be one.  But I have read feminist theorists recently and it goes much, much MUCH deeper than that.  
Depends on what theories you read, L.


On the question wheter I´m a feminist or not, I´d say: of course. I´m for equality between the sexes, equal pay for equal work etc. I´m fully aware of the debt I owe to all the women who have worked hard and sacrified many things to make things better for the next generations.
Women have been segregated against and still are as a group - in the western world as well as in many, many other countries. And that is not my opinion, but fact.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #121 on: September 21, 2011, 07:33:56 pm »
All they do is run it close enough to the reactor core to make it boil.

They have to do more than that.  Salt water boils.  That doesn't make it less salty.  You know that every time you toss a pinch of salt into water before cooking pasta. 

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #122 on: September 21, 2011, 09:25:43 pm »
They have to do more than that.  Salt water boils.  That doesn't make it less salty.  You know that every time you toss a pinch of salt into water before cooking pasta. 

Sure. It needs to be distilled. That's how God does it...basically. Reactors are already making enough heat to do this.
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #123 on: September 21, 2011, 11:20:17 pm »
Sure. It needs to be distilled. That's how God does it...basically. Reactors are already making enough heat to do this.

Sure then, so they don't just boil it.  It has to be turned into steam, cooled, condensed, then gathered and pumped away to be treated with chlorine and the usual chemicals before being made available to customers.  And this has to be done in such volume that a millions of gallons have to processed daily.  With one nuclear reactor? 

Um, I think there would have to be a lot more of them built.

And I'm not sure where cities thousands of miles from oceans are going to get their seawater... 

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #124 on: September 22, 2011, 08:23:23 am »
Um, I think there would have to be a lot more of them built.

Absolutely. I think we need more nuclear power in this country period.

Geez...we sure got off-topic.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #125 on: September 22, 2011, 08:41:13 am »
Geez...we sure got off-topic.

I was thinking that, too. What a wide-ranging conversation! I like it that way, though.




Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #126 on: September 22, 2011, 12:13:09 pm »
To bring the conversation back slightly closer to the topic, here's an article about new books in which male authors tout the advantages of big families:

Books By Men Who Like Big Families
Jeffrey Kluger's The Sibling Effect is part of an emerging canon that fetishizes large broods.
By Lauren Sandler


When Jeffrey Kluger was in his 20s, out of his family nest and settling into a career as a journalist in New York City, his longtime girlfriend suggested that perhaps his extreme emotional expenditure on his three brothers—with whom he spent his free time hanging out or chatting on the phone—would be best devoted elsewhere. When Kluger mentioned her comment to his brother Bruce, he received a simple, damning reply: "Yoko."

Kluger, now an editor and science reporter at Time, admits—lionizes, really—an unusual closeness with his brethren. "The four of us, we came to know at a very deep level, were a unit—a loud, messy, brawling, loyal, loving, lasting unit," he writes in his new book The Sibling Effect: What the Bonds Among Brothers and Sisters Reveal About Us. (In place of a conventional author photo, Kluger chose an image of the "unit"—four towheaded brothers, arms entwined.) Given the extent to which Kluger interweaves his survey of sibling studies (on everything from birth order to gender to competition) with memoir it is tempting to take a Sharpie to the book's title, replacing Us withThem. I don't begrudge Kluger's close fraternal ties; his writing about his family is both frank and lyrical, and it's tough not to fall for his spunky tales of brotherly hijinks. But I couldn't escape the feeling that he was trying a bit too hard to pitch me something. When, at the book's end, he quotes a researcher who points out (darkly) that siblings cast a lifelong shadow, Kluger writes that this "shadow, like all shadows, is a thing created by light. And siblings—old or young, living nearby or far way—shine a very bright one."

Why the hard sell on siblinghood? Kluger is unabashed about the fact that his book's mission is to argue for what he calls the "sibling ideal." In his view, "as long as mom and dad are able to breed and support more young, they may as well keep having them." It's an unlikely stance for a science reporter who should know well the psychological, environmental, and financial costs of large families. And it places The Sibling Effect in an emerging canon of books, invariably written by men, arguing that women should have more children. These books tend to fall into one of three categories: 1. It's better for your kids, e.g. Kluger. 2. It's better for you, e.g. Bryan Caplan's Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids. 3. It's better for society, e.g. Philip Longman's The Empty Cradle.

As a journalist who reports on such studies, Kluger has probably seen the research suggesting that parents with more kids tend to be less happy (though they score higher in lifelong satisfaction) than those with fewer children. Kluger also knows first-hand about the cost of such choices—his father was remote on the best of days, and Kluger surmises that his father's misery, and the subsequent unraveling of his parents' marriage, was a result of his father having been cast too young as a father to four kids. But still, Kluger's message is unwavering: To have thriving kids, it helps to have a "whole band of them."

In deference to this message, Kluger downplays and even ignores another ream of research (about which I wrote a cover story for his own magazine) on how happily children can develop without siblings. Even as he includes a quote from a leading researcher who says that singletons do just fine—and sometimes better—than people with siblings, he describes only children as "pampered, spoiled, hothoused things, too temperamentally fragile to survive in the wilds of the world," and so on. He cites data showing how only children thrive, but makes a claim that has been disproved in hundreds and hundreds of studies over the last century: "Singletons will learn selfishness when they should learn sharing, inflexibility when they should learn compromise, narcissism when they should learn generosity."

Kluger's conception of marriage is likewise anachronistic, a relic of an era long since done in by Betty Friedan and the need for two incomes. In Kluger's world, a typical mother still says "Don't bother Daddy when he gets home; you know how angry he gets," while "in stable marriages Dad would also take pains to give Mom props for how hard she works and to remind the kid that anybody would be fed up at the end of a long day of domestic labor." Seriously. So even as census rolls show the share of families with more than two kids creeping back up, the rough-and-tumble crewcut-era boyhood Kluger waxes nostalgic about seems impossibly distant from the contemporary reality of female breadwinners.

Driving the way-back machine even farther, Philip Longman, the author of The Empty Cradle, goes as far as to call for a "return to patriarchy" (and homesteading!) to ensure more robust fertility. At least he understands the opportunity costs: Factoring in the penalties of mommy-tracking in our inhospitable work world, he writes, would raise the Department of Agriculture's per-child estimated average expenditure (currently climbing toward $300,000) to more than $1 million a kid.

Meanwhile, Bryan Caplan, an economist as well as a virulent natalist, bypasses such notions entirely in last year's Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, preferring to argue that since we earn more money than we did in the '50s, we should have more kids and not fewer. He doesn't bother with increases in cost of living, let alone the cost of college tuition. Nor does he make any mention in the book of the fact that his wife works; I know that she does only because I asked him myself. He does, however, tell us that when his wife learned that she was pregnant with just one baby after previously having twins, he had to resist the temptation to tell her, mid-sonogram, "better luck next time." Caplan isn't suggesting that his wife pick up the pace for the sake of the fetus, however—he's not trading in the sort of don't you want what's best for the children guilt beloved by so many writers on parenting. (In fact, Caplan rails quite effectively against parental guilt. Among other things, he advises us to lean on the serenity prayer, a tip which allowed me to send my kid to school in PJs this morning.)

Don't do it for the kids, Caplan says of procreation, do it for you. It's a business-school-style approach to consumption (rather than production, oddly), one he rides hard. "As a consumer, how do you change your behavior when a product gets cheaper or better or easier to purchase? You buy more," he writes. "You post a five-star review on Amazon. If kids are the product, consumer logic still applies: Buy more as the deal gets sweeter." Writ large across the globe this means major gains, he argues—including the as-yet unborn geniuses who will solve any resulting environmental and overpopulation issues. Exultant in the idea that we are soon to hit the 7 billion population mark, Caplan tells us that just means 7,000 one-in-a-million thinkers.

Of course, these books aren't really anything all that new; it's the American way, this Cheaper by the Dozen mentality, conflating virtue with fertility. In June's GOP debate, when candidates were instructed to deliver a single opening sentence, Rick Santorum counted his kids (seven) and Mitt Romney followed suit (five), adding daughters-in-law (five) and grandchildren (16). Both were potentially trumped by Ron Paul's claim that he had delivered 4,000 babies as an obstetrician. (Dudes all, like these authors.) But the winner in this otherwise-cockfight was the Bachmann birthing overdrive—Michele's parenting of 28 siblings, 5 from her own loins and 23 from foster care. No doubt we'll read all about it in her forthcoming book, which is supposed to cover both her personal life and, fittingly, her views on "pro-growth economics." The canon of big brood books will have another author with an agenda, and I won't feel any better that this time it'll be a mother holding the pen.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #127 on: September 22, 2011, 04:59:16 pm »
I definitely won't be reading that book; in fact, it was pretty painful just to read the review. There are men all over the place whining and shouting and haranging and chastizing and preaching for a return to patriarchy and they can blow steam as much as they want but IMO, it ain't going to happen. The horse has galloped away and left the barn doors open.

Once a woman receives education she will not live long in self-imposed servitude. She will also educate her daughters and even though the pendulum might swing back and forth through the generations, it will come to rest in the middle ground. That is where men and women are complementary equals, different in many ways but not created for one to rule over the other. And when women have education and a higher quality of life, the record shows that they have fewer children. I'm all for each child born being a wanted, cherished child. You can't have a baseball team with that premise.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #128 on: September 22, 2011, 05:20:05 pm »
Coincidentally, I have read one of the other two books she mentions: economist Bryan Caplan's Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids. It is a really strange book, in that it makes some excellent points and some WTF points.

The excellent points include the fact that studies of twins and adoptees indicate that parents have very little control over how their children "turn out," that parenting methods make almost no difference in children's success in life, personality, etc. etc. I have discussed this before on BetterMost, so I won't go into it again here unless anyone is interested, but I will say Caplan presents the evidence very persuasively -- though I was persuaded about this years ago, based on the writings of Judith Rich Harris, which he liberally credits -- as an economist he is logical and thorough and scholarly, but he has a light, populist writing style. He also points out that health and safety risks to children have plummeted since the 1950s.

Both of these facts he uses to argue that parents shouldn't stress out about parenting as much as modern parents do. An excellent point.

But his WTF point is that, with this in mind, people should have more children than they otherwise would (not necessarily a baseball team, but say 2 if you were planning on 1, or 3 if you were planning on 2, etc.). Among other huge problems with this argument that Caplan completely ignores is that there are lots and lots of reasons to limit one's children beyond our ability or lack thereof to mold their personalities. Finances, for one. Raising children is extremely expensive; I think the latest figure is $286,000 not including college. There are even lots of other things to stress out about. So even if you can't shape them and they don't die of anything, there are still lots of reasons not to have them in excess. Plus, why would he even care whether other people have more kids or not? He should have just made the points above and left it at that.

Caplan doesn't come across as particularly patriarchal. He just seems sort of goofy.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #129 on: September 22, 2011, 07:00:13 pm »
Absolutely. I think we need more nuclear power in this country period.

We need closer oceans.  ;D

As for nuclear power plants...eh, as soon as a we find a very safe place for all the spent fuel rods which will be dangerously radioactive for the next 100,000 years and need to be stirred every 75 years lest they settle to critical mass, and not just dump them in a hole in the desert like they're doing now, I think our technology needs to develop further.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #130 on: September 23, 2011, 01:38:03 pm »
"When Jeffrey Kluger was in his 20s, out of his family nest and settling into a career as a journalist in New York City, his longtime girlfriend suggested that perhaps his extreme emotional expenditure on his three brothers—with whom he spent his free time hanging out or chatting on the phone—would be best devoted elsewhere. When Kluger mentioned her comment to his brother Bruce, he received a simple, damning reply: 'Yoko.'"

Hunh?  ???

Quote
"Why the hard sell on siblinghood? Kluger is unabashed about the fact that his book's mission is to argue for what he calls the 'sibling ideal.' In his view, 'as long as mom and dad are able to breed and support more young, they may as well keep having them.' It's an unlikely stance for a science reporter who should know well the psychological, environmental, and financial costs of large families. And it places The Sibling Effect in an emerging canon of books, invariably written by men, arguing that women should have more children. These books tend to fall into one of three categories: 1. It's better for your kids, e.g. Kluger. 2. It's better for you, e.g. Bryan Caplan's Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids. 3. It's better for society, e.g. Philip Longman's The Empty Cradle.

And I bet all these authors, even any not mentioned here, are all white guys?  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #131 on: September 23, 2011, 01:39:06 pm »
We need closer oceans.  ;D

We'll have 'em once the polar caps are melted.  8)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #132 on: September 23, 2011, 01:45:00 pm »
And I bet all these authors, even any not mentioned here, are all white guys?  8)

Trust me, white ain't got nuthin' to do with it.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #133 on: September 23, 2011, 03:53:17 pm »
That's certainly true. There are proponents of large families among all nationalities and ethnic groups, except for Caucasians and some Asian peoples. In fact, because the white and Asian populations are shrinking or not growing very fast is one reason the white guys are writing books and exhorting. These are the two groups with the highest educational rate, too. Coincidence? I don't think so.
May 2019 be better for us all.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #134 on: September 23, 2011, 04:02:20 pm »
Scratch these white authors advocating that whites should have lots more children deeply enough and you'll find a racist afraid of the white population being "overwhelmed" by the nonwhite population. They used to be more open about that before racism became socially unacceptable in mainstream circles.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #135 on: September 23, 2011, 04:11:57 pm »
Scratch these white authors advocating that whites should have lots more children deeply enough and you'll find a racist afraid of the white population being "overwhelmed" by the nonwhite population. They used to be more open about that before racism became socially unacceptable in mainstream circles.

That's not racism, that's tribalism. There is a big difference.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #136 on: September 23, 2011, 04:30:38 pm »
Hunh?  ???

Meaning, a woman whose relationship with one group member threatens the cohesiveness of an otherwise all-male group.


Scratch these white authors advocating that whites should have lots more children deeply enough and you'll find a racist afraid of the white population being "overwhelmed" by the nonwhite population. They used to be more open about that before racism became socially unacceptable in mainstream circles.

Wow, that seems like a huge stretch.

I'm not an advocate for big families by any means, but I think it's certainly possible to be one without racism being a factor. And vice versa.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #137 on: September 23, 2011, 06:39:54 pm »
Meaning, a woman whose relationship with one group member threatens the cohesiveness of an otherwise all-male group.

OK, thanks. I "got it" that it was reference to Yoko Ono, but not what it actually meant!  ;D

Quote
Wow, that seems like a huge stretch.

I'm not an advocate for big families by any means, but I think it's certainly possible to be one without racism being a factor. And vice versa.

I don't think it's a big stretch at all. While, unfortunately, I can't cite anything, I'm sure I've read about writers in the past--and maybe not so far in the past--writing openly that the white race needed to breed more to keep from being overwhelmed by the black, brown, and yellow "races." There is historical precedent for what I'm "hearing" as I read about these books.

But please note that I didn't say it was racist to have a large family of children. I said--or I was trying to say--that I believe there is racism buried below the skin of white authors who write books advocating that white people need to have lots more children than they're presently having. And if I were a betting man, I would bet next month's condo fee that the books discussed above are not aimed at Asians or African-Americans.

Of course, having no children, I'm no help at all. ...  ;D  ::)

Quote
Quote from Milo: That's not racism, that's tribalism. There is a big difference.

Heh. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #138 on: September 23, 2011, 06:49:37 pm »
I don't think it's a big stretch at all. While, unfortunately, I can't cite anything, I'm sure I've read about writers in the past--and maybe not so far in the past--writing openly that the white race needed to breed more to keep from being overwhelmed by the black, brown, and yellow "races." There is historical precedent for what I'm "hearing" as I read about these books.

But please note that I didn't say it was racist to have a large family of children. I said--or I was trying to say--that I believe there is racism buried below the skin of white authors who write books advocating that white people need to have lots more children than they're presently having. And if I were a betting man, I would bet next month's condo fee that the books discussed above are not aimed at Asians or African-Americans.

Of course, having no children, I'm no help at all. ...  ;D  ::)

Heh. If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck. ...

The difference is that tribalism is the promotion and prioritization of one's own tribe, and yes, that can often be to the exclusion of all others. Racism, on the other hand, is the targeting of a specific other tribe.

For example...

There is a growing racism in the black community due to the explosion of the latino population. Some are saying that the latinos are going to take what we have worked so hard for. That is a racist sentiment aimed at latinos specifically.

For one of the authors to say that whites need to have more babies to keep up, or to maintain their position in the world, that is about whites with relation to ALL other races. That is a tribalist sentiment intended to compete with everyone who is not white in general.

If you listen closely, you'll hear that one "quacks," the other "toots."
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #139 on: September 23, 2011, 07:13:01 pm »
I don't think it's a big stretch at all. While, unfortunately, I can't cite anything, I'm sure I've read about writers in the past--and maybe not so far in the past--writing openly that the white race needed to breed more to keep from being overwhelmed by the black, brown, and yellow "races." There is historical precedent for what I'm "hearing" as I read about these books.

But please note that I didn't say it was racist to have a large family of children. I said--or I was trying to say--that I believe there is racism buried below the skin of white authors who write books advocating that white people need to have lots more children than they're presently having. And if I were a betting man, I would bet next month's condo fee that the books discussed above are not aimed at Asians or African-Americans.

I have no doubt that there are racists who urge white people to have more children in order to increase the white population's census numbers.

But it's a gigantic stretch to go from that fact to level the same accusation against authors happen to be white but who never mention race in their books, whose books could just as easily be read by anyone of any race (how on earth do you determine that a book that never mentions race or class or anything else even close is "aimed" at one race or another?? by that measure, any book written by a white person is "aimed" at white readers), who give perfectly respectable if very arguable reasons for having more kids.

Kluger is a scientist whose book is reviewed, BTW, in this week's NYT Book Review. Caplan is a respected economist. Not that prominent professionals can't be racist, but come on. There's absolutely no reason to think that they're racist, other than their sharing one part of an opinion (big families are good) with people who are. And if anybody who happens to share any opinion with a racist is therefore racist, that pretty much means that all of humanity is racist for one reason or another.


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #140 on: September 23, 2011, 08:43:26 pm »
Whatever. ...  ::)

If it walks like a duck. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #141 on: September 23, 2011, 09:04:27 pm »
Whatever. ...  ::)

If it walks like a duck. ...

... it's a racist duck.  ::)


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #142 on: September 23, 2011, 09:05:34 pm »
Whatever. ...  ::)

If it walks like a duck. ...

Sadly, the Association Fallacy is operating here.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #143 on: September 24, 2011, 11:28:14 am »
Sadly, the Association Fallacy is operating here.

Yes. It's the same flawed logic that produced this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841

Nazis were environmentalists and vegetarians. Many liberals are environmentalists and vegetarians. Thus, liberals are Nazis.



Offline SugarPCsHeart

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #144 on: August 25, 2014, 06:00:01 pm »
Nothing about it is abusive. I have been in a CDD relationship for a long time now and my husband and I have a marriage for the record books. He didn't just start hitting me or anything like that. I did research and brought it up to him. It is a mutual agreement and there is no harm done. We sat down and both discussed what we expected of each other. I told him what I needed from him as my husband and he did the same with me. I still argue with him from time to time and have an opinion and make decisions for the family the same as any other wife. But, instead of fighting and being angry with each other for days or weeks at a time like most other marriages the issue is addressed at the time it happens and it goes both ways. True I get a spanking but he has repercussions for his actions also mainly because I weigh 100# and he is 230# and it just wouldn't be effective if I attempted to spank him lol. Your uneducated opinion and view just nullifies your entire argument. You are arguing that it is a man claiming over a woman and beating her but if you actually spoke to any CDD/DD/DS couples you would realize the majority of them began with the woman/submissive presenting the relationship to the other. Most husbands/Dom's start off timid and afraid cause the concept of spanking their spouce seems odd and against everything they were raised up with. But, if you ask them now, their marriage/relationship is better than it ever was before. The allowing of the roles to be where we are personally biologically wired to be (not always the man as the disciplinarian.) Also, it isn't always BDSM oriented either for the other people who obviously posted with no knowledge of the subject either. I do not get off from being spanked, the disappointment I feel knowing I upset my husband enough to get a spanking makes it far from a sexual experience. He has never hit me or punched me or spanked anywhere other than the typical location. There is never mean words or degrading comments or sexual activity during/or closely following the discipline. I do not get barbarically thrown to the ground or slammed over a table for the right position. We have a private discussion in our room as to what rule (we both agreed to them all and many I chose for myself) was broken, then I get a rebuttle to explain why, if I had a just reason as to why I broke it , if I agree with him that i just broke it we move forward from there. After I am spanked we discuss what I will do next time to improve my behavior (keep in mind most of my rules I set for myself) then we snuggle up and usually watch a movie and discuss what we did that day and what we have planned for the next day. As you can see, instead of... like a normal relationship where a woman does something that upsets her husband, they argue, she bitches, they yell, go to bed mad then act irritated towards each other til it either is resolved or they forget why they were even mad. Instead of all the messy shit we agreed to end and fix the issues instantly. My husband has rules also and pays for his mistakes also as I do and the issue is dealt with and over.

So before you throw out some uneducated opinion and judge men and women and their marriages you know nothing about, you should probably do some research and talk to people who actually practice, cause all you have done is make yourself look like an idiot.

<3 A happily married CDD wife.

Different strokes for different folks?  But blechh, and I do mean blechh!!   Where's the vomit smiley when you need it?  >:(

http://christiandomesticdiscipline.com/how_to_discipline.html

Just an example below.  The whole site is devoted to this medieval BS:

The Application of Discipline to Your Wife

You must always remember those two sin dynamics common to all women, for the vast majority of your discipline will stem from her struggles concerning them. Of course, each wife has peculiar struggles for you to deal with as well, and you'll need to be aware of them when they rear their heads.

First, do not attempt to discipline your wife without first going to the Lord in prayer. No man alone is wise enough, and we must seek the Lord when faced with discipline issues.

There are two primary methods to discipline in the home towards wives, and one necessary means of grace. Following are the methods of discipline:

    Exhortation. When your wife is sinning, exhort her with the Word. Use your Bibles, gents! This needs to be done with gentleness, and often you will need to repeat yourself several times (using similar words) before it sinks in. Remember always, when disciplining that the person before you is the most cherished, adored person in your universe. Treat her as such. If you have children, it may, depending on how her sin touched the children require that they be present. However, keep control of the situation. DO NOT LET THE CHILDREN EXHORT YOUR WIFE DIRECTLY! There are times when children may do so, but once you're involved, it's your show, Husband. If the children have something to say (and you feel that it needs to be heard) have them address you, and not her. You are your wife's leader and authority in the home, not the children. Do not risk upsetting that balance.

    Rebuke and Lash. This is the harshest discipline a husband should administer, and it should always be done privately and with Godly, Biblical love. Usually, exhortation will have already taken place before this method is used, but there may come situations where this is the first step. The rebuke and lashing should be administered with a calm heart. Talk to your wife, let her know you are serious, and tell her why she is to be disciplined physically.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #145 on: August 26, 2014, 09:10:33 am »
Also, it isn't always BDSM oriented either for the other people who obviously posted with no knowledge of the subject either.

Thank you for clarifying.

I was the first one to make the comparison to BDSM. That was my error. The reason I brought BDSM up is because I thought the people who post here would be able to make the logical leap, and understand that both types of relationships can be healthy and work well for the couples in them. I never meant to imply that the spankings in a CDD relationship are in any way erotic.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #146 on: August 26, 2014, 12:00:04 pm »
I don't understand. If it's not erotic, what's the point of corporal punishment? That's not even recommended for children these days, and I'm not sure why it would be considered an appropriate way to resolve conflicts between married partners. If you feel you have done something wrong enough to require "punishment," why not just apologize? Or, if you you both prefer to "punish" each other for wrongdoing, why doesn't he use the same form of punishment for you that you apparently do for him, whatever that is?

I'm not arguing that the relationship is abusive. It is obviously one of mutual consent, at least in your case. So if there's an erotic element, I understand.

You have no obligation to explain it here, of course, but as long as you bring it up, I'm curious.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #147 on: August 26, 2014, 12:34:00 pm »
Yes. It's the same flawed logic that produced this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-American-Mussolini-Politics/dp/0385511841

Nazis were environmentalists and vegetarians. Many liberals are environmentalists and vegetarians. Thus, liberals are Nazis.

Hmm. What's that saying about the person who brings the Nazis into an argument?  ;D

There was nothing "flawed" about my suspicions about writers who urge white people to have more children three years ago, and there is nothing flawed about it now.
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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #148 on: August 26, 2014, 05:03:31 pm »
I don't understand. If it's not erotic, what's the point of corporal punishment? That's not even recommended for children these days, and I'm not sure why it would be considered an appropriate way to resolve conflicts between married partners.

I wonder about that as well.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #149 on: August 26, 2014, 08:57:42 pm »
That's not even recommended for children these days,

A highly debatable point, but I don't think its worth derailing this thread to explore it. Let's just say that there are lots of people in both camps.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #150 on: August 26, 2014, 10:17:22 pm »
Hmm. What's that saying about the person who brings the Nazis into an argument?  ;D

First of all, let's clarify that I did not bring Nazis into this argument. Jonah Goldberg did -- the point of his book that I linked to was that liberals are like Nazis because of some unrelated nonsense or other. I was pointing out that his book was ridiculous, so I hardly think that constitutes an example of argument violation via Godwin's Rule. I myself did not compare you or anyone to a Nazi.


Quote
There was nothing "flawed" about my suspicions about writers who urge white people to have more children three years ago, and there is nothing flawed about it now.

When an argument is based on a sentence like this ...

While, unfortunately, I can't cite anything, I'm sure I've read about writers in the past--and maybe not so far in the past--writing openly that the white race needed to breed more to keep from being overwhelmed by the black, brown, and yellow "races." There is historical precedent for what I'm "hearing" as I read about these books.

... I'd say it's pretty darned flawed. You can't site anything. You're sure you've read about such writers "in the past." Well, of course all kinds of writers wrote all kinds of things in the past, and I'm sure some writers did just what you vaguely recall hearing they did.

But writers in the 21st century can hardly be tarred with the same brush you would use on writers whom you vaguely remember from the (very) distant past (and yes, that would be very distant -- like, probably about 100 years ago if you're talking about mainstream writers openly encouraging the "white race" to breed more; that's been uncool since long before the Civil Rights movement).

A German Catholic clergyman wrote The Malleus Maleficarum ("Hammer of the Witches") in 1486. It was a hugely influential book in the European witch persecutions, which led to up to 60,000 executions. I would say it's unfair in 2014 to hold German Catholic clergymen responsible for that.

(Wonder what law covers bringing European witch persecutions into an argument?  ;D )


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #151 on: August 27, 2014, 09:03:47 am »
But writers in the 21st century can hardly be tarred with the same brush you would use on writers whom you vaguely remember from the (very) distant past (and yes, that would be very distant -- like, probably about 100 years ago if you're talking about mainstream writers openly encouraging the "white race" to breed more; that's been uncool since long before the Civil Rights movement).

No, it would be no further back than the Nineties of the last century, if that far, and I also doubt the very contemporary "Full Quiver" people are urging people who are not white to have lots more chldren.

I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #152 on: August 27, 2014, 09:43:56 am »
No, it would be no further back than the Nineties of the last century, if that far,

So let me make sure I understand. You're saying you have heard of writers in the 1990s or later writing actual books published by legitimate publishers -- as opposed to some tract they printed off in their basement and passed around at their neo-Nazi gatherings -- that openly urged white people to have more babies to combat the rising population of non-white babies.

Well, I guess I'd have to see titles. Or names of authors. Or reviews. Or something. Otherwise, frankly, I'm skeptical.

Quote
and I also doubt the very contemporary "Full Quiver" people are urging people who are not white to have lots more chldren.

Me, I like to wait until I hear someone say something racist before I accuse them of racism. Just because someone has one characteristic I dislike doesn't mean they have all the characteristics I dislike.

I don't claim to be an expert on the Full Quiver philosophy, but as far as I know it doesn't have anything to do with the overall population's racial balance. And -- they're conservative Christians, right? -- many conservative Christians are non-racist.

Quote
I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Stick with whatever you like.  :)  Personally, I like to base my beliefs on actual evidence. Vaguely imagining that that a person is "ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races" just because they don't explicitly mention race at all does not count as evidence in my book.

I don't usually explicitly mention race when I'm writing about something that has nothing to do with race, but that doesn't mean I'm directing my words only at white people.






Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #153 on: August 27, 2014, 10:06:45 am »
OK, possible partial mea culpa -- I just googled "white people more babies" and found this right away:

http://newobserveronline.com/if-white-americans-dont-start-having-babies-now-the-us-will-vanish-by-2100/

Quote
If White Americans Don’t Start Having Babies Now, the US Will Vanish by 2100

... “We’re jumping the gun on a long, slow decline of our white population, which is going to characterize this century,” William Frey, a demographer with the Brookings Institution, was quoted as saying.

... The figures show clearly once again that unless white Americans get serious about increasing their birthrate—and having more children immediately—then it is certain that the America of 1776 will no longer exist by 2100.[/b]

It's the "the US Will Vanish," of course, that makes it racist. As if the US would not exist as an entity if it weren't majority white. That's not a book, but it looks like a pretty established, well-financed, professionally produced site. And of course there are plenty of other far more sleazy-looking sites where people express similar sentiments.

There are also a few stories from liberal sites accusing conservative commentators on Fox News or wherever of saying racist things about birthrates.

So I guess it's not entirely far-fetched that some conservative book might mention this issue in a racist way. Though I'm still skeptical about the existence of a whole book entirely on that topic. You'd think it would have raised more of a fuss. If stray stupid comments by Paula Dean or a football-team owner could rule the news cycle for a week or more ...

Meanwhile, there are other neutral sites and stories reporting projected demographic shifts in the population due to declining birthrates among white people. And a few conservatives in mainstream publications (e.g., Ross Douthat in the NYT) expressing alarm about declining birthrates overall and urging people in general to produce more babies -- for the sake of the economy, not the racial balance. I don't count either of those as racist.



Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2014, 11:48:55 am »
I've been thinking, too, that tribalism does not apply here. The Amish and the Mormons are "tribal." An argument that encourages people of one race to breed more children, while ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races, is inherently racist in my book. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Using that logic, the NAACP is racist because it encourages blacks to get college educations while ignoring people of other races.

Encouraging people of one's own race is not a de facto discouragement of people of other races.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2014, 11:54:36 am »
OK, possible partial mea culpa -- I just googled "white people more babies" and found this right away:

Your search skills are better than mine--or maybe I should say your search imagination? I might have puzzled and puzzled till my puzzler was sore and not thought to google that phrase.

Quote
http://newobserveronline.com/if-white-americans-dont-start-having-babies-now-the-us-will-vanish-by-2100/

It's the "the US Will Vanish," of course, that makes it racist. As if the US would not exist as an entity if it weren't majority white. That's not a book, but it looks like a pretty established, well-financed, professionally produced site. And of course there are plenty of other far more sleazy-looking sites where people express similar sentiments.

There are also a few stories from liberal sites accusing conservative commentators on Fox News or wherever of saying racist things about birthrates.

So I guess it's not entirely far-fetched that some conservative book might mention this issue in a racist way. Though I'm still skeptical about the existence of a whole book entirely on that topic. You'd think it would have raised more of a fuss. If stray stupid comments by Paula Dean or a football-team owner could rule the news cycle for a week or more ...

Meanwhile, there are other neutral sites and stories reporting projected demographic shifts in the population due to declining birthrates among white people. And a few conservatives in mainstream publications (e.g., Ross Douthat in the NYT) expressing alarm about declining birthrates overall and urging people in general to produce more babies -- for the sake of the economy, not the racial balance. I don't count either of those as racist.

Of course it isn't racist if it's urging people in general to have more babies.

So let me make sure I understand. You're saying you have heard of writers in the 1990s or later writing actual books published by legitimate publishers -- as opposed to some tract they printed off in their basement and passed around at their neo-Nazi gatherings -- that openly urged white people to have more babies to combat the rising population of non-white babies.

Well, I guess I'd have to see titles. Or names of authors. Or reviews. Or something. Otherwise, frankly, I'm skeptical.

No, that wasn't what I was saying. That's far too specific. All I'll allocate to is vague memories of reading or hearing something, some controversy, within the last two decades about some conservative writing something about the need for white people to have more babies.

Quote
I don't claim to be an expert on the Full Quiver philosophy, but as far as I know it doesn't have anything to do with the overall population's racial balance. And -- they're conservative Christians, right? -- many conservative Christians are non-racist.

No doubt the last is true, especially those who are not white, but I wonder how many non-white people go to church with the Duggers (sp?)?

Quote
Stick with whatever you like.  :)  Personally, I like to base my beliefs on actual evidence. Vaguely imagining that that a person is "ignoring, discreetly or otherwise, people of other races" just because they don't explicitly mention race at all does not count as evidence in my book.

I don't usually explicitly mention race when I'm writing about something that has nothing to do with race, but that doesn't mean I'm directing my words only at white people.

Well, then, can you please explain to me why something urging specifically white people to have more babies doesn't have something to do with race?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #156 on: August 27, 2014, 12:01:17 pm »
Encouraging people of one's own race is not a de facto discouragement of people of other races.

Not as long as you're not encouraging them to breed more babies so they don't get overwhelmed by people of other races.

"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2014, 02:33:37 pm »
No, that wasn't what I was saying. That's far too specific. All I'll allocate to is vague memories of reading or hearing something, some controversy, within the last two decades about some conservative writing something about the need for white people to have more babies.

Um, OK ... Well, I certainly can't argue that nobody in the past 20 years has expressed that idea in print or aloud, especially since I just posted an example of it. So if that's all you're claiming at this point, then you're absolutely right.

However, back in 2011 your argument was that any white person who writes a book urging people to have more children is dog-whistling white people to have more children to counteract the rising non-white population. That's what I was disagreeing with, especially because I had read (and reviewed!) one of the books we were discussing and can vouch that it wasn't racially targeted. At all.

Scratch these white authors advocating that whites should have lots more children deeply enough and you'll find a racist afraid of the white population being "overwhelmed" by the nonwhite population. They used to be more open about that before racism became socially unacceptable in mainstream circles.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #158 on: August 27, 2014, 03:16:36 pm »
However, back in 2011 your argument was that any white person who writes a book urging people to have more children is dog-whistling white people to have more children to counteract the rising non-white population. That's what I was disagreeing with, especially because I had read (and reviewed!) one of the books we were discussing and can vouch that it wasn't racially targeted. At all.

"Dog-whistling"? Hmm. Well, I can hear it! :laugh:

I see no reason to alter my opinon from three years ago, so I guess we've probably stopping point on this one?
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #159 on: August 27, 2014, 04:36:03 pm »
Quote from: Jeff Wrangler link=topic=49404.msg661407#msg661407 date=1409166996
"Dog-whistling"? Hmm. Well, I can hear it! :laugh:

I see no reason to alter my opinon from three years ago, so I guess we've probably stopping point on this one?

Sure. I guess if you're not inclined to alter your opinion despite being admittedly underinformed on the issue, being unable to recall any specific incidents and having been presented with evidence to the contrary, you have every right to stick to your story! Many, many people do the same thing all the time.  :)

I still am curious, though, why if you accuse people like Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids author Bryan Caplan (economics professor at George Mason University, blogger for EconLog, writer for the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal etc., author of an earlier book called "the best political book of the year" by the New York Times) -- if you accuse him of being an undercover white supremacist, then why you don't do the same for NYT columnist Ross Douthat, who is also white and has also argued in favor of the general public increasing their procreation rates, primarily (he claimed!) for economic reasons.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #160 on: August 27, 2014, 08:42:11 pm »
I still am curious, though, why if you accuse people like Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids author Bryan Caplan (economics professor at George Mason University, blogger for EconLog, writer for the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal etc., author of an earlier book called "the best political book of the year" by the New York Times) -- if you accuse him of being an undercover white supremacist, then why you don't do the same for NYT columnist Ross Douthat, who is also white and has also argued in favor of the general public increasing their procreation rates, primarily (he claimed!) for economic reasons.

I'll respond to that when you respond to my question as to why something specifically urging white peope to have more kids isn't racist.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #161 on: August 27, 2014, 10:57:00 pm »
I'll respond to that when you respond to my question as to why something specifically urging white peope to have more kids isn't racist.

Hunh? Something specifically urging white people to have more kids obviously is racist.

My point is that if race isn't mentioned anywhere i the text, even if the author is white, his/her motivations aren't necessarily racist.


Offline milomorris

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #162 on: August 28, 2014, 08:44:19 am »
Not as long as you're not encouraging them to breed more babies so they don't get overwhelmed by people of other races.

Well, in the case of the NAACP, its a matter of becoming educated so that blacks can stop being overwhelmed by people of other races. Whether its babies or college degrees, its about competition.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #163 on: August 28, 2014, 09:29:07 am »
Hunh? Something specifically urging white people to have more kids obviously is racist.

My point is that if race isn't mentioned anywhere i the text, even if the author is white, his/her motivations aren't necessarily racist.

I'm not disputing that point. I agree with you. Nothing wrong at all with urging everyone to be fruitful and multiply for the good of the economy. But I confuse very easily these days, and I was under the impression we were discussing something and someone that was specifically complaining that white people weren't having enough babies.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #164 on: August 28, 2014, 12:49:50 pm »
I realize this was three years ago. But it started with me posting an article in which male authors advocated that people should have more babies. You said

And I bet all these authors, even any not mentioned here, are all white guys?  8)

and because the answer happens to be yes, you posited that they were instructing white people specifically to have more babies.

In any case, it sounds like we agree at this point. If a writer specifically urges white people to have more babies, it's probably racist (unless maybe s/he makes very clear that s/he's addressing white people specifically only because they're the demographic that has fallen behind in birth rate). If s/he doesn't specify race at all, then the message itself, at least, is not racist.

So after much confusion, it looks like we can conclude the debate, don't you think?



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #165 on: August 28, 2014, 02:28:49 pm »
I realize this was three years ago. But it started with me posting an article in which male authors advocated that people should have more babies. You said

and because the answer happens to be yes, you posited that they were instructing white people specifically to have more babies.

In any case, it sounds like we agree at this point. If a writer specifically urges white people to have more babies, it's probably racist (unless maybe s/he makes very clear that s/he's addressing white people specifically only because they're the demographic that has fallen behind in birth rate). If s/he doesn't specify race at all, then the message itself, at least, is not racist.

So after much confusion, it looks like we can conclude the debate, don't you think?

Ay-yup.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.