Author Topic: Christian Domestic Discipline  (Read 75164 times)

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2011, 07:01:10 pm »
Women are human beings just as men are.  If men can benefit from freedom and fulfilling their own desires and being leaders - and they do - why wouldn't women similarly benefit?  So any philosophy that stifles the ability of women to do these things, that keeps them from fulfilling themselves as human beings is not 'right' in any way.  

What makes you think that such a marriage keeps these women from fulfilling themselves as human beings?? And better yet, how do you define fulfillment??
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2011, 07:07:04 pm »
Whoa. I'm not saying they're honest. I'm saying that what they say reflects the opinions of their constituencies/audiences. They're quite willing to say all kinds of ridiculous things because that's what their audience believes, or what they want their audience to believe, or what the audience wants to believe. That's why the fact that they DON'T go around saying that men are the leader of women is so telling. If that were a widespread attitude out there -- like, say, the idea that there's no such thing as evolution -- than you can bet they'd be saying it all the time. The fact is, they're not.

I'm sorry crayons but I think you're just splitting hairs here.  Colter has already said that women shouldn't vote because they elect democratic presidents.  Rush coined a term to easily dismiss any woman who actually speaks about women's rights or who is determined about women's rights "feminazi".  They are already dismissive of women.  They don't have to be specific about who is head of the family.  It is automatically implied from their rhetoric.

Quote
But see? This very quote just proves my point. Sure, Pat Robertson hates feminists. But note that he explicitly says that feminists are "NOT about equal rights for women" (emphasis added). In other words, equal rights for women is a GOOD thing, but feminism is not because (he says) it's about something else -- i.e., killing one's children, destroying capitalism and becoming lesbians. (Which of course is a much more plausible description of the feminist agenda.  ::))

This is just the right-wing version of left-leaning women who say, I'm for equal rights but don't call me a feminist.

I guess if you R E A L L Y stretch you can get that interpretation from what he said.    IMO, what he's saying is blatant, women who call themselves feminists are about murdering children and satanism.  There is NO 'legitimate' feminism, IOW.  Again, tarring and feathering a term that women use to further their cause.  Making 'feminisim' an ugly word no one wants to associate with and therefore further splintering groups who work for women's rights.

It's an insidious control mechanism.

Quote
What does this have to do with what we're talking about?

What it relates to is that such people are extremely isolated.  They live in a very homogeneous society and they don't have any other influences other than what they grew up with.  And while they don't have to, they can be easily influenced by that society into thinking that their way is right and everyone else is the problem.  I'm glad you grew up that way crayons.  My friends did not.  And I meet more people like them, than I do people like you.    

Quote
Again, yes, sure. But these aren't women necessarily brought up to believe they had to submit to men. In the first case, they were brought up to believe you don't get divorced. In the second case, they are lonely and desperate.

So why doesn't anyone dissuade them?  Yes, you can get divorced.  No, you don't need a man.  Because the people around them believe what they do, too.


Quote
The Wilder Effect doesn't apply to cases like Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann. People who said they were going to vote for Wilder but secretly didn't do so were not also, at the same time, actively and passionately supporting Wilder. They were people giving face-saving information to a pollster just to be P.C. But the people who turn out in droves to see Palin and Bachmann, who defend them to the hilt in newspaper comment sections and so on ... these people don't go to those lengths just to appear P.C. They think those women are fantastic. And in Bachmann's case, anyway, they DO vote for her. That's why she's in office. She gets voted back in by her extremely conservative constituents, because they have no objections to a woman representative as long as she shares their conservative views.

But that doesn't explain Palin though, does it?

Quote
Right. It took them more or less by surprise also. But they had a very different system of government than we do. America is not run by a dictator now, and I don't see the clergy taking over the government through revolution anytime soon.

Does it have to be, though?  You do recall how the Mormon Church involved itself in Prop 8 in California, right?  You do recall Dubya courting the religious right and promptly started doing away with funding to Planned Parenthood, outlawing types of abortion, signing into law the religious initiatives, right?  I'm in Texas, I don't have to tell you what the state school board did to the textbooks and history.  I just read a story the other day of yet another school having to be ordered to take down the 10 commandments.  There doesn't have to be a dictator in power.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2011, 07:11:23 pm »
What makes you think that such a marriage keeps these women from fulfilling themselves as human beings?? And better yet, how do you define fulfillment??

As soon as I see men rushing to the altar to get married and planning their weddings from when they were children, then I'll believe that when anyone first thinks of fulfillment, they think marriage.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2011, 07:16:08 pm »
As soon as I see men rushing to the altar to get married and planning their weddings from when they were children, then I'll believe that when anyone first thinks of fulfillment, they think marriage.

Lots of children--Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.--fantasize about their weddings. They play House, etc. And many men are focused on finding a wife--as opposed to just getting laid.

Marriage is a part of life's fulfillment for many people. Even gays.

What IS your point about marriage and fulfillment?
 
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2011, 07:18:05 pm »
Lots of children--Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.--fantasize about their weddings. They play House, etc. And many men are focused on finding a wife--as opposed to just getting laid.

Marriage is a part of life's fulfillment for many people. Even gays.

What IS your point about marriage and fulfillment?
 

 :laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2011, 07:20:26 pm »
:laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

We did.

Again. What are you trying to say about the relationship between marriage and fulfillment? You seem to be setting them at odds.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2011, 07:44:53 pm »
We did.

Again. What are you trying to say about the relationship between marriage and fulfillment? You seem to be setting them at odds.

Not at all.  I just don't think marriage should be the end-all, be-all of anyone's existence or ideas of fulfillment.  Truly Milo, I know of no guy who - when growing up or in school - dreamed about being married.  They dreamed about the girls they'd fuck, the places they'd go, the careers and power and toys they'd have.  Oh, yeah, and maybe some day settling down.

Offline milomorris

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,426
  • No crybabies
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2011, 08:01:09 pm »
Not at all.  I just don't think marriage should be the end-all, be-all of anyone's existence or ideas of fulfillment.  Truly Milo, I know of no guy who - when growing up or in school - dreamed about being married.  They dreamed about the girls they'd fuck, the places they'd go, the careers and power and toys they'd have.  Oh, yeah, and maybe some day settling down.



Most Christian women--especially Fundamentalists--have other ambitions than marriage. Yes, marriage is probably on most of their lists, but does not sit alone at the top.

Rest assured, we most certainly talked about which girls we wanted to fuck. At the same time, almost every boy I grew up with dreamed about having a wife someday. Even I did until I was about 19. My buddies and I would talk about what kind of girl we would marry. What kind of house we would live in. How many kids we wanted. Whether we wanted boys or girls. What we wanted our wives and children to have. What we didn't want for our wives & children. Its pretty typical for children to work out the deficiencies in their own lives through fantasy.

What I don't remember is ever having a single conversation like that with a girl. And that might explain why you never heard any boy speak of these things.

  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2011, 10:02:58 pm »
I didn't say they weren't different in their non-sexual lives. I said people in their sexual lives don't necessarily switch back and forth from spanker to spankee.

That statement was in response to more than one post here.

Quote
Let me be clear. Obviously I believe there are abused women out there. And that some of those abused women are Christians. And that sometimes their Christianity is connected to their abuse, such as when they don't believe in divorce. And in A FEW cases, they were probably raised to believe that the husband is the boss of the household and the wife has to submit, and that somehow leads to their accepting abuse that they might otherwise not put up with. . . . I think liberals tend to expect conservatives to automatically hold extremely outdated views of male and female roles. That's why they pounced on Sarah Palin for pursuing a demanding career when she had a baby at home.

Let me be clear. I'm quite aware that there isn't a one-size-fits-all model for conventional religious family life; for that you might want to address an atheist who's fond of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and cute references comparing a belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus.  

Of course not every religious household teaches the whole party line about female submission.  Is that what you wanted to hear?  But there are more than a few who do, all-caps or otherwise.  It's an idea that isn't consistent with Western culture any longer; that's why it has to be prettied up with imaginative translations like 'submission' equaling 'respect.'  And yes, they do pay lip service to equality for women but there's a whole lot less there than meets the ear.  Plenty of people who oppose equal rights for both women and gays insist up and down that they 'love the fair sex' and/or 'have nothing against The Homosexuals.'  IMO it's more than a little naive to take that at face value.

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: Christian Domestic Discipline
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2011, 10:05:08 pm »
:laugh:  Sorry, Milo.  We must have grown up in completely different areas/times/attitudes.  The boys I knew wanted to play doctor, not house.

When I was 4 I played house with the little boy across the street.  My mom was very surprised when she walked in on us, though I must say she was cool about it.    ;D