Author Topic: As women get bigger, models get smaller  (Read 20996 times)

Offline delalluvia

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As women get bigger, models get smaller
« on: January 14, 2012, 03:03:20 pm »
One, printed alongside a photo of the Russian beauty holding a tape measure across her rear, reads: 'Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2085226/PLUS-Model-Magazines-Katya-Zharkova-cover-highlights-body-image-fashion-industry.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/most-models-meet-criteria-for-anorexia-size-6-is-plus-size-magazine/

Offline Monika

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2012, 03:15:54 pm »
That "plus size" model is hot!

She isnīt the slightest overweight, though. Often it feels as though the fashion world exists in its own little bubble, one that doesnīt deal much with reality.


Offline delalluvia

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2012, 03:34:19 pm »
That "plus size" model is hot!

She isnīt the slightest overweight, though. Often it feels as though the fashion world exists in its own little bubble, one that doesnīt deal much with reality.



I thought so too.  Next to her, the 'real' model looked like a skinny child. 

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2012, 03:50:36 pm »
Fashion advertising seems to exist in a totally separate universe.

I mean, how many of us have seen advertising spreads for "affordable office clothes" and they show an outfit whose blouse costs as much as some retail and restaurant workers make in a week?  And where are these workplaces where the pay is so high that an outfit that costs $300 or more (not counting shoes) would really be considered a "budget shopping" item?

Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2012, 04:52:15 pm »
One, printed alongside a photo of the Russian beauty holding a tape measure across her rear, reads: 'Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2085226/PLUS-Model-Magazines-Katya-Zharkova-cover-highlights-body-image-fashion-industry.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/most-models-meet-criteria-for-anorexia-size-6-is-plus-size-magazine/

Its interesting. back in the 70s & 80s, the industry was looking for models that looked like women. Sometime in the 90s, the industry started to look for models that looked like little girls. I think its kinda sick myself. They are contracting these girls at younger and younger ages. Calvin Klein was somewhat controversial in the 90s for promoting (if not creating) the "waif look." Many called it the "heroin addict" look.

While the pendulum has swung back very little in the world of fashion (if at all), we have seen the world of commercial advertising become far more diverse. Not only are there more ethnic models being hired for commercial work, but we are seeing older models, and bigger men and women being hired to help market everything from soap to cars.
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2012, 07:55:30 pm »

  Back in the 50s and 60s, even before that the women that were models wore a size 10.  A real size ten.  Now they wear a "0", what the hell is a size zero anyway?  It is a fictional figure, made up so that the models and others that try to be smaller can say that they wear that size.  It is a fantasy number made famous by fantasy minded people. 
  In my opinion the gay men in fashion are dressing and wanting women that look like small young men.  They are trying to put that slant onto the type people that they choose to be the models.  Now the women, starting with the famous one in charge of the top modeling agency in the world is in the same state of mind.  Nina Ford is notorious for choosing those types of looks as well.  I had a friend, whos sister in law won one of her modeling contests.  She refused the job however, they made it a condition for hiring her.  She had to have all of her back molars removed, in order to give her the gaunt "heroin" appearance.  That was in the 70s.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:35:59 pm by ifyoucantfixit »



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Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2012, 09:13:40 pm »

  Back in the 50s and 60s, even beefore that the women that were models wore a size 10.  A real size ten.  Now they wear a "0", what the hell is a size zero anyway?  It is a fictional figure, made up so that the models and others that try to be smaller can say that they wear that size.  It is a fantasy number made famous by fantasy minded people.  
  In my opinion the gay men in fashion are dressing and wanting women that look like small young men.  They are trying to put that slant onto the type people that they choose to be the models.  Now the women, starting with the famous one in charge of the top modeling agency in the world is in the same state of mind.  Nina Ford is notorious for choosing those types of looks as well.  I had a friend, whos sister in law won one of her modeling contests.  She refused the job however, they made it a condition for hiring her.  She had to have all of her back molars removed, in order to give her the gaunt "heroin" appearance.  That was in the 70s.

Amazing. And you are quite right.

The modeling business is just so bitchy, cut-throat, and down-right ridiculous. I'm glad I got out of it when I did. Can you imagine telling a black man to his face that he's not black enough for your ad campaign?? I mean, I can laugh about it now, but at the time I thought it was pretty insulting.

One problem is that fashion editors are moving too fast to take the time to do focus group tests. And the designers don't even bother. They have their heads so far up their asses it isn't even funny. If their latest look doesn't get picked up by a major store, its because the buyers for that store have no taste. If the store picks it up and the designs don't sell, its the public's fault because they're too stupid to know what beautiful is. They never bother to think that maybe their designs suck.

So these people just put out what they have defined think is "every woman's ultimate fantasy."

And since this is the Women's blog, I'm not even going to talk about what the fashion industry does (or tries to do) to men.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 10:42:34 pm by milomorris »
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Offline delalluvia

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2012, 02:26:38 pm »
Fashion advertising seems to exist in a totally separate universe.

I mean, how many of us have seen advertising spreads for "affordable office clothes" and they show an outfit whose blouse costs as much as some retail and restaurant workers make in a week?  And where are these workplaces where the pay is so high that an outfit that costs $300 or more (not counting shoes) would really be considered a "budget shopping" item?

Agree.  I find that annoying in the extreme.  But then I figure that their magazine isn't geared toward regular people like me, so I stop buying their magazine.  Some magazines do better with "steal and deal" sections where they show the high priced items and then do a comparison with a much more reasonably priced item.

I was window shopping last night, peered into a window at a mannequin wearing the latest spring dress from a famous designer, and saw that the material was the same awful cheap crepe silk I can find in bargain bin store dresses and walked off.

I'm sorry, but $800 casual dresses made out of 'jersey' fabric?  That's t-shirt material, I don't know who buys such things, but they're idiots.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2012, 02:51:28 pm »
I'm sorry, but $800 casual dresses made out of 'jersey' fabric?  That's t-shirt material, I don't know who buys such things, but they're idiots.

More money than brains, I'd say.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2012, 11:18:56 pm »
More money than brains, I'd say.

Yes, you're right.  I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a jersey dress, but a handbag?  Yes!  ;D

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 05:34:40 am »
$800?

I'd spend it on travel.   The only occasion where's I'd spend $800 on anything to wear would be if one of my favorite fantasies came true and I got to be a presenter at the Academy Awards.

Offline SuperDistortion

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 12:22:06 pm »
That "plus size" model is hot!

She isnīt the slightest overweight, though. Often it feels as though the fashion world exists in its own little bubble, one that doesnīt deal much with reality.


I completely agree with Monika here.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 12:33:46 pm »
$800?

I'd spend it on travel.   The only occasion where's I'd spend $800 on anything to wear would be if one of my favorite fantasies came true and I got to be a presenter at the Academy Awards.

A lot of people look at it that way.  But that $800.00 handbag is so well made (hand made, actually) that I'll carry it for 30 years (even longer) and pass it down to my daughter.  I've had bags from the same maker since the 70s, and still in good condition.  It actually makes sense in a way: a cheaper bag will fall apart and I'll have to replace it more often.  And this particular brand has such a following that I can sell the bag and get most of my money back for it, if I take good care of it.

My sister actually bought me the $800.00+ bag for Christmas.  It is my pride and joy!  :)

Offline Kelda

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 03:10:00 pm »
Yep, I'd spend $800 on travel before clothes or handbags too!
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 03:53:13 pm »
Yep, I'd spend $800 on travel before clothes or handbags too!

Yes, but handbags are for utility.  Travel may provide memories/enrichment, but it is just for a season.  To each his/her own.  I can't resell travel; I can sell a fine handbag.

I once loved to travel but have lost interest in it.  It is too much of a bother.  My daughter and I travelled all over the US and points in the Carribean when she was a baby, but now I'm burned out.  I will send my daughter to a music festival in Italy this summer, however.

Offline Sophia

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 06:45:22 pm »
I completely agree with Monika here.

Me tooo...

Offline delalluvia

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 08:47:21 pm »
A lot of people look at it that way.  But that $800.00 handbag is so well made (hand made, actually) that I'll carry it for 30 years (even longer) and pass it down to my daughter.  I've had bags from the same maker since the 70s, and still in good condition.  It actually makes sense in a way: a cheaper bag will fall apart and I'll have to replace it more often.  And this particular brand has such a following that I can sell the bag and get most of my money back for it, if I take good care of it.

My sister actually bought me the $800.00+ bag for Christmas.  It is my pride and joy!  :)

Yow, well, I would hope that an $800 handbag would be made well and you're buying quality and not just a designer name.  But I doubt you could tell until AFTER you had the handbag for a while. 

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 09:06:31 pm »
Yow, well, I would hope that an $800 handbag would be made well and you're buying quality and not just a designer name.  But I doubt you could tell until AFTER you had the handbag for a while.  

Yes, I've had a bag made by the same designer (several, actually) since the 70s and they are in excellent condition.  If my daughter and niece hadn't already claimed them, I would put my vintage bags up for sale on Ebay.  I may sell a few of them, but I haven't decided yet.

My sister didn't even blink when she put down $860.00 at the boutique for me to get that bag for Xmas.  But she says she'll never buy one for herself.

Del, I love, love, love your avatar picture!  Gorgeous!  :)

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2012, 10:52:44 am »
A lot of people look at it that way.  But that $800.00 handbag is so well made (hand made, actually) that I'll carry it for 30 years (even longer) and pass it down to my daughter.  I've had bags from the same maker since the 70s, and still in good condition.  It actually makes sense in a way: a cheaper bag will fall apart and I'll have to replace it more often.  And this particular brand has such a following that I can sell the bag and get most of my money back for it, if I take good care of it.

Whatever floats your boat.  Frankly, the idea of leaving a handbag to one's daughter made me laugh. And I can't imagine carrying the same bag for 30 years.  It would be like washing out and wearing the same underwear every day for a decade.

Of course, my own view of it is colored by the fact that an $800 handbag would represent almost 2 months of our mortgage payments.  Or half a year of electric bills.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2012, 11:30:33 am »
Whatever floats your boat.  Frankly, the idea of leaving a handbag to one's daughter made me laugh. And I can't imagine carrying the same bag for 30 years.  It would be like washing out and wearing the same underwear every day for a decade.

Today I can see that, but, of course, centuries ago, when clothing was valuable and difficult to obtain, clothes were important bequests in people's wills. I don't think they had handbags back then, though.  ;)
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2012, 11:36:05 am »
Yes, and in centuries past -- i.e., before the Industrial Revolution -- fashions changed much more slowly than they do now.  Even upper-class people might wear clothes that had belonged to a parent.

I'd guess that given the current economy, the number of people who would dismiss someone's choice of a handbag costing less than 3 figures as "cheap" has declined;  but there's no accounting for taste.  And be that as it may, I simply wouldn't want to carry the same handbag for the rest of my life.

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2012, 12:51:45 pm »
Yes, and in centuries past -- i.e., before the Industrial Revolution -- fashions changed much more slowly than they do now.  Even upper-class people might wear clothes that had belonged to a parent.

I'd guess that given the current economy, the number of people who would dismiss someone's choice of a handbag costing less than 3 figures as "cheap" has declined;  but there's no accounting for taste.  And be that as it may, I simply wouldn't want to carry the same handbag for the rest of my life.

I'm not saying that I will carry the same handbag for 30 years, but that I can.  I have dozens of handbags and change them up depending on the weather, rule of dress code, etc.  My new bag is too big to carry to the movies, and I'll carry a smaller bag, but by the same luxury brand.

You may be surprised about some women and their obsessions with handbags.  The purse forum has over 200,000 members, both men and women and there is no fewer than 1500 people on line at any given time.  We post pictures of our bags, discuss them and shamelessly obsess about our next purchases.   ;D

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2012, 12:58:52 pm »
Today I can see that, but, of course, centuries ago, when clothing was valuable and difficult to obtain, clothes were important bequests in people's wills. I don't think they had handbags back then, though.  ;)

And I'll bet that movie star/socialite has passed down her $40,000 Birkin bag to her daughter.  I know I'm talking about rich and famous folks here, but passing down a luxury item, even if it is a handbag, doesn't seem strange to me.  I inherited my grandmother's beaded evening bag and it is one of my prized possessions. Kimora Lee Simmons has a trunk full of Louis Vuitton bags (I can't even image what that cost) and she's still colleting them to give to her girls when they come of age.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2012, 02:21:43 pm »
How about a $130 bra and $60 underpants? There are pictures on the Michelle-Michelle-Michelle thread.

Do women actually pay $130 for a brassiere?  ???

I can maybe see RuPaul doing it, but a real woman?  ???
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Offline Monika

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2012, 02:30:20 pm »
How about a $130 bra and $60 underpants? There are pictures on the Michelle-Michelle-Michelle thread.

Do women actually pay $130 for a brassiere?  ???

I can maybe see RuPaul doing it, but a real woman?  ???
If one can afford it, why not?

Most of us have interests we spend money on. I spend a lot of money on traveling, others might be into fashion or...carpets.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2012, 02:53:12 pm »
If one can afford it, why not?

Because it's underwear?

Unless one is in a profession where it's seen a lot, maybe.  8)

Then maybe it's a tax write-off.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Monika

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2012, 03:19:13 pm »
Because it's underwear?

Donīt underestimate how what you wear underneath can affect your mood! 8)

Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2012, 03:45:27 pm »
Donīt underestimate how what you wear underneath can affect your mood! 8)

You can say that again!! If you want to make a man squirm, put him in underpants that are either uncomfortable, or offer insufficient support. Of course, many men prefer none at all.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2012, 03:45:59 pm »
Donīt underestimate how what you wear underneath can affect your mood! 8)

 ;D
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2012, 03:51:40 pm »
How about a $130 bra and $60 underpants? There are pictures on the Michelle-Michelle-Michelle thread.

Do women actually pay $130 for a brassiere?  ???
I can maybe see RuPaul doing it, but a real woman?  ???

Sure.  Even more if the bra was specially made for them.  My grandma had her own dressmaker.  She'd spend a lot of money for her custom made dresses.  I don't remember how much, but it was a tidy sum, considering all the fabric involved!    ;D My grandma was a big, beautiful doll of a woman!  I loved to see her get fitted for her dresses, especially her gowns.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2012, 04:48:13 pm »
Sure.  Even more if the bra was specially made for them.  My grandma had her own dressmaker.  She'd spend a lot of money for her custom made dresses.  I don't remember how much, but it was a tidy sum, considering all the fabric involved!

Of course "bespoke" is more expensive than off-the-rack.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2012, 07:29:45 pm »
Of course "bespoke" is more expensive than off-the-rack.

Oh!  :)

Offline delalluvia

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2012, 08:07:02 pm »
Yes, I've had a bag made by the same designer (several, actually) since the 70s and they are in excellent condition.  If my daughter and niece hadn't already claimed them, I would put my vintage bags up for sale on Ebay.  I may sell a few of them, but I haven't decided yet.

My sister didn't even blink when she put down $860.00 at the boutique for me to get that bag for Xmas.  But she says she'll never buy one for herself.

Del, I love, love, love your avatar picture!  Gorgeous!  :)

OK, but I tend to be hard on my handbags.  I've seen designer purses at pawn shops and such places and they do show wear after heavy use.  No way I would spend $800 on a designer handbag just to have it look run down after a few years.

I guess if you have a closet full of designer handbags, so that each doesn't get much wear, I could justify it (assuming I had the money to buy a plethora of designer handbags).

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2012, 09:24:56 pm »
OK, but I tend to be hard on my handbags.  I've seen designer purses at pawn shops and such places and they do show wear after heavy use.  No way I would spend $800 on a designer handbag just to have it look run down after a few years.

I guess if you have a closet full of designer handbags, so that each doesn't get much wear, I could justify it (assuming I had the money to buy a plethora of designer handbags).

Yes, I've seen designer bags at consignments shops and places like Goodwill that were jacked up.  But I've also seen bags that were in almost pristine condition at the same places.  I guess it all depends on how you take care of them.

I have some designer bags but I can't afford the ones I really want.  The bags I'm drooling over run so high ($800.00 is real cheap for a premier designer bag) that I can't justify spending the money on them, even if I saved up.   But then again, I didn't buy all of my designer gear.  My relatives have been good to me over the years, and so have the men in my life.  :)

Offline Kelda

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2012, 05:15:00 am »
Whatever floats your boat.  Frankly, the idea of leaving a handbag to one's daughter made me laugh. And I can't imagine carrying the same bag for 30 years.  It would be like washing out and wearing the same underwear every day for a decade.

Of course, my own view of it is colored by the fact that an $800 handbag would represent almost 2 months of our mortgage payments.  Or half a year of electric bills.

But well kept vintage stuff is sooo nice! And if good nick, can really retain (or increase) their value - just like a vase or picture would.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2012, 12:22:56 pm »
But well kept vintage stuff is sooo nice! And if good nick, can really retain (or increase) their value - just like a vase or picture would.

Very true!  I've seen purses by famous makers exceed their value just because they were a limited edition item. 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2012, 05:58:31 pm »
I just saw this thread. I have never spent more than $100 on a handbag (and probably not even that), but if someone can afford it and that's what makes them happy, why not? It's their business. You could say, well, she should take that money and give it to the poor instead, and that's a valid argument. But you could say the same thing to someone who spends $800 on travel. Spending money on travel is not intrinsically morally superior to spending money on apparel. It's a personal preference (it also happens to be my personal preference).

That said, I hate it when media stories act like it's reasonable to call purses, shoes, shirts, etc. with three-figure pricetags "inexpensive." To me, anything short of maybe a winter coat that costs over $100 is expensive, period. And I believe that manufacturers have brainwashed the public into thinking that designer items are worth as much more as their prices would indicate. A $100 designer T-shirt is no doubt better made than a $25 Old Navy T-shirt -- but not four times better.


Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2012, 10:06:29 am »
The image of leaving a handbag to some luckless heir in one's will* is still hilarious but otherwise, I'm wondering why this thread was resurrected.  


*  "To my son Jimmy I leave my business and its inventory, and my stocks and bonds. To my daughter Erica I leave my house and bank accounts.  And to my other daughter Bristol I leave all my handbags and underwear."
« Last Edit: June 20, 2012, 10:10:04 pm by Marge_Innavera »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2012, 10:41:03 am »
A $100 designer T-shirt is no doubt better made than a $25 Old Navy T-shirt.

Not necessarily.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2012, 01:05:35 pm »
But the $100 designer T-shirt can give the wearer that priceless feeling of superiority.   :laugh:


Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2012, 01:30:32 pm »
But the $100 designer T-shirt can give the wearer that priceless feeling of superiority.   :laugh:



That feeling comes from the $1000 designer T-shirt.  And no different from those who feel superior when they brag about that luxury grand tour they took over in Europe, or wherever else.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2012, 01:55:57 pm »
But the $100 designer T-shirt can give the wearer that priceless feeling of superiority.   :laugh:

I get that feeling when I brag about the $10 shirt I bought at Boscov's.  ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2012, 10:07:30 pm »
Actually, I get that feeling when I wear a silk blouse that I found for $3.

And yes, "it absolutely is pronounced 'on-deeve'."

Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2012, 10:24:07 pm »
We all find ways to brag about our response to consumer culture -- whether it's about how much we can afford, or what a great deal we got, or how we surround ourselves in luxury, or how frugal we are, or how little we care because we're above all of that. And yes, all of these perspectives are capable of bestowing priceless feelings of superiority.



Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2012, 11:15:59 pm »
We all find ways to brag about our response to consumer culture -- whether it's about how much we can afford, or what a great deal we got, or how we surround ourselves in luxury, or how frugal we are, or how little we care because we're above all of that. And yes, all of these perspectives are capable of bestowing priceless feelings of superiority.

I enjoy the surge of accomplishment I feel when an individually-purchased interest gets picked up by a mutual fund.  I feel even better when one of my holdings splits.  Dividends are the best!!
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline CellarDweller

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2012, 07:17:20 am »
*  "To my son Jimmy I leave my business and its inventory, and my stocks and bonds. To my daughter Erica I leave my house and bank accounts.  And to my other daughter Bristol I leave all my handbags and underwear."

Which I would promptly sell on Ebay to perverts for big cash!   :laugh:

This conversation reminds me of a time one of my British friends came to NYC for a visit......I met him at his hotel room as he was getting ready to go out to dinner with me and some friends.  This was the conversation that took place:

Him:  So this outfit is ok?

Me:  Yeah, it's fine.

Him (grabs sunglasses):  Do you like these, Chucky?

Me:  Yeah, they're nice.

Him:  Prada......150.00 pounds.

Me:  Do you like these?  (puts on my sunglasses)

Him:  Yes, very stylish.

Me:  CVS.  $9.99.

 :laugh:

I REFUSE to pay more than $15.00 for sunglasses.  I either lose them, or put them on the passenger seat of my car, and someone sits on them and breaks them.

 :laugh:


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2012, 07:22:52 am »
And in regards to the title of this thread, models are not the only ones getting smaller, as this image I found with Google demonstrates.




I also agree with the sentiment that goes with the picture, the women on the top row can't hold a candle to the women on the bottom.


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2012, 08:52:36 am »
And yes, "it absolutely is pronounced 'on-deeve'."

Everyone can have their own little baby chicken on their own little baby plate.

 ;D
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2012, 08:56:19 am »
And in regards to the title of this thread, models are not the only ones getting smaller, as this image I found with Google demonstrates.




I also agree with the sentiment that goes with the picture, the women on the top row can't hold a candle to the women on the bottom.

Maybe it has something to do with all those gay designers who are really into boys and so they want their models to look like skinny boys.

I mean, I would think straight guys would prefer the women in the bottom row; except for Heidi, the stars in the bottom row all have much bigger boobs.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline CellarDweller

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2012, 09:03:45 am »
And yes, "it absolutely is pronounced 'on-deeve'."

Everyone can have their own little baby chicken on their own little baby plate.

 :laugh:

That commercial kills me!


Tell him when l come up to him and ask to play the record, l'm gonna say: ''Voulez-vous jouer ce disque?''
'Voulez-vous, will you kiss my dick?'
Will you play my record? One-track mind!

Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2012, 09:03:53 am »



I also agree with the sentiment that goes with the picture, the women on the top row can't hold a candle to the women on the bottom.

I'm going to start this post with a disclaimer: the ideas presented below do not represent the poster's personal opinions, but rather his observations.  

Men need to be needed. They need to feel relevant. They need to think that they are important.

Throughout the majority of human history, heterosexuality has contained a quality of male dominance over females. This element was established based wholly on the physical differences between human males and human females. Specifically, the fact that males tend to be bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than females. In our proto-human past, in our hunter-gatherer past, and in our pre-nuclear past, men did indeed rule the world. Enemies were well-defined, and men did most of the providing, creating, inventing, and protecting. In those days, a man's strength was unquestionably greater than that of a woman. That dynamic made it desirable for a man to have "as much woman" as he could handle. An example of this was the Reubenesque beauty--a young, pampered, and well-fed woman...supported by a rich and powerful man.

In the post-modern world, with all of its technological advancements--women have achieved a much greater level of parity with men. As such, women have less of a need for men. Some might say that women don't really need men at all. Yet the primal urge men have for being needed persists. The male dominance over females has not gone away. But because women can now compete with men on a male level in our society, "as much woman" is a smaller, more frail, more dependent package than it used to be. That's "as much woman" as today's man thinks he can handle.

Chuck is right when he says that the women on the top row can't hold a candle to the women on the bottom row. But neither can their male peers hold a candle to the men who were peers of the women on the bottom row.  
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2012, 09:05:25 am »
We all find ways to brag about our response to consumer culture -- whether it's about how much we can afford, or what a great deal we got, or how we surround ourselves in luxury, or how frugal we are, or how little we care because we're above all of that. And yes, all of these perspectives are capable of bestowing priceless feelings of superiority.




Levels of irony detection, however, have fallen below the ability of even the most expensive and status-worthy equipment to cope with.

Next up: a solemn and scholarly discussion of the social significance of tube socks.

Offline Monika

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2012, 09:25:20 am »
And in regards to the title of this thread, models are not the only ones getting smaller, as this image I found with Google demonstrates.




These are all very successful women.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2012, 10:39:18 am »
Men need to be needed. They need to feel relevant. They need to think that they are important.

Agreed, though I would change "men" to "humans."

Quote
Throughout the majority of human history, heterosexuality has contained a quality of male dominance over females. This element was established based wholly on the physical differences between human males and human females. Specifically, the fact that males tend to be bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than females. In our proto-human past, in our hunter-gatherer past, and in our pre-nuclear past, men did indeed rule the world. Enemies were well-defined, and men did most of the providing, creating, inventing, and protecting. In those days, a man's strength was unquestionably greater than that of a woman. That dynamic made it desirable for a man to have "as much woman" as he could handle. An example of this was the Reubenesque beauty--a young, pampered, and well-fed woman...supported by a rich and powerful man.

I would say your history here is a little reckless. I'm not going to bother to google which gender did more of the providing "in our hunter-gatherer past," though I'd be willing to bet the tribes relied on gathered foods about as much as they did hunted ones -- hence the presence of both in the name. As for "protecting," no male would live to be old enough to hunt if females weren't doing their share of the protecting. Creating and inventing? Hard to say since pre-history is, by definition, pre-history.

And of course 16th c. Peter Paul Rubens, and those who admired his paintings, did not live in a hunter-gatherer society. But then you say "pre-nuclear"? So maybe you mean everything up until 1945. And here, as when you say "well-fed," you're onto something.

Quote
In the post-modern world, with all of its technological advancements--women have achieved a much greater level of parity with men. As such, women have less of a need for men. Some might say that women don't really need men at all. Yet the primal urge men have for being needed persists. The male dominance over females has not gone away. But because women can now compete with men on a male level in our society, "as much woman" is a smaller, more frail, more dependent package than it used to be. That's "as much woman" as today's man thinks he can handle.

Men's preferences don't solely dictate fashion. Especially not straight men's preferences. If they did, fashionable clothes would look A LOT different.

But actually, this body trend has much more to do with economics, class and snobbery.

Throughout most of human history -- a period, as Milo points out, that dates from our proto-human past through Rubens' 16th century to the nuclear age -- it was hard to get enough food to be fleshy. Hunter-gatherer societies were often at risk of starvation, among many other threats. The most successful hunters AND GATHERERS (i.e., the highest-status members of the society) would of course be least likely to be thin. Jumping ahead to Rubens' time, same thing. The nobility could afford plenty of food and leisure and get chubby pretty easily. Look at Henry VIII. But the average peasant? Not so much; work was physical, food was scarcer, and if a crop failed one year those peasants would get awfully skinny. Jump ahead to everything up until mid-20th century America. Before the New Deal, if you were out of money and food you were just about out of luck. You would rely on charity, maybe, and scrape by. Read Erskine Caldwell's "Tobacco Road" for a harrowing account of what life was like for the rural poor in the '20s and '30s: It includes scenes of hungrily devouring scavenged radishes, trying to sell gathered branches as firewood, etc.

Now to post-WWII America. Suddenly, thanks to the New Deal, even most poor people can usually get food. And thanks to a bunch of other trends in post-war society, food is abundant -- especially cheap and fattening food, like junk food and fast food. Obesity increases, along with diabetes, heart disease and all that other stuff. Suddenly, for the first time in all of human history, people are more likely to die of too much food than too little.

But who is best able to avoid the health hazards of excess food and obesity? Once again, it's the rich. They have both more money and leisure time -- they can afford the gym memberships, the private trainers, the neighborhoods with running and biking trails, the fresh vegetables, the cooked-from-scratch meals. The poor often can't move about freely in their neighborhoods and have a harder time accessing healthy foods. And compared to the poor of the past, they are far more likely to work in sedentary jobs.

Fashion is usually, one way or the other, a reference to wealth, not sex. Excluding the odd self-consciously rebellious period ("grunge," hippies, which both involved conscious protest against status-quo excess), the look that is fashionable is what the rich can afford to look like. That's certainly the case today.

I know I've talked about suntanning trends before, but they operate on the same principle.

Quote
Chuck is right when he says that the women on the top row can't hold a candle to the women on the bottom row. But neither can their male peers hold a candle to the men who were peers of the women on the bottom row.  

I think they're all fine. I don't judge women (or men) on their thinness any more than their fatness. Kiera and Kristen appear to be naturally thin people (and hooray  to Kristen for not falling victim to the tanning trend, or maybe she's just careful to maintain a Bella-like pallor). Nicole, as anyone who spends any time in grocery store checkout lines or dentist's offices knows, used to be heavier. But who can blame her for wanting to meet her culture's standards for attractiveness? Most of America does -- though most subcultures in America aren't quite as fat-hating as Hollywood celebrity subculture. Put on a few pounds and you can expect to have your cellulite displayed on the cover of US magazine. As for Heidi, well, she does have those boobs. And so could any of the others here if they wanted to obtain them the same way she did.



Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2012, 11:46:19 am »
Levels of irony detection, however, have fallen below the ability of even the most expensive and status-worthy equipment to cope with.

Next up: a solemn and scholarly discussion of the social significance of tube socks.

Why not?  I've seen more worthless posts about more worthless crap posted on the internet.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2012, 11:50:52 am »
Levels of irony detection, however, have fallen below the ability of even the most expensive and status-worthy equipment to cope with.

Irony and the appreciation thereof are acquired skills, and they do seem to be in short supply these days.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2012, 01:22:56 pm »
I'm not going to bother to google which gender did more of the providing "in our hunter-gatherer past," though I'd be willing to bet the tribes relied on gathered foods about as much as they did hunted ones -- hence the presence of both in the name.

Humans need protein and fat in order to survive. Both can be found in vegetables, but without farming there is no reliable vegetable source for these needs. Besides, farming takes time. Killing a large animal can provide protein and fat for many days, and for many people at once rather quickly. The problem with large animals is that they are stronger, faster, and more dangerous than humans. That means that the strongest, fastest, most dangerous humans needed to form cooperative groups in order to kill large animals on a regular basis.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2012, 02:07:28 pm »
But who is best able to avoid the health hazards of excess food and obesity? Once again, it's the rich. They have both more money and leisure time -- they can afford the gym memberships, the private trainers, the neighborhoods with running and biking trails, the fresh vegetables, the cooked-from-scratch meals. The poor often can't move about freely in their neighborhoods and have a harder time accessing healthy foods. And compared to the poor of the past, they are far more likely to work in sedentary jobs.

I would like to point out that my great grandparents, grandparents, and parents were all poor folks. In their day, it was easy to find fresh meats and vegetables in their neighborhoods at low cost. Cooking a meal from scratch was far less expensive than purchasing prepared meals, or prepared ingredients. A 10lb bag of chicken wings from the local butcher used to cost way less back in the day than a 2lb bag of Stouffer's Honey Barbecue Wings in the frozen food section costs today.

With this in mind, a few years ago, I started to shop the way my grandmother taught me. Meat from the butcher. Fish from the seafood store. Vegetables from the farmers' market. Bread from the bakery. Toilet paper, toothpaste, flour, and sugar from the grocery store. What I discovered is that such habits are not at all easy to follow in urban areas. Corporate grocery stores have long ago put local food merchants out of business in most American cities. Some cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington DC have markets where people bring the fresh goods in from both the land and the sea on a daily or weekly basis. 

Now that David and I are living out in the country, its easy to shop at each local provider in turn because they are all located within a 10-mile radius, and we have 2 cars. But what if we were still living in downtown Philadelphia, and had to rely on public transportation? Yes, it would be more difficult to get at fresh food. We would have to plan our weekend activities to make sure we could get to the farmers' markets before they close. We would have to think about what we purchase, how much we purchase, what is in season, what we can carry, etc. But it would indeed be possible for us to eat fresh and healthy if we still lived in Philadelphia. So can the rest of Philadelphia's residents whether they be rich or poor.

When I was a child, nobody I knew went to a gym. We didn't know what a personal trainer was. We didn't have any running or biking trails in da 'hood. Yet somehow, we managed to get out and stay active. Truth be told: I didn't start putting on weight until I got a nice, cushy job at Verizon. When I started in 1994 (it was Bell Atlantic then) I was 29 years old, and weighed 185lbs. When I left in 2003, I weighed 240lbs. I made more than enough money to stay fit via all the modern methods, but I didn't put in the effort. I was healthier when I made $26,000/year than I was when I made $68,000/year.

As far as I'm concerned, economics have absolutely nothing to do with staying healthy for most Americans. I think it s a matter of making the right choices, and being willing to get out there and do what you can do at your income level.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2012, 05:16:37 pm »
Humans need protein and fat in order to survive. Both can be found in vegetables, but without farming there is no reliable vegetable source for these needs. Besides, farming takes time. Killing a large animal can provide protein and fat for many days, and for many people at once rather quickly. The problem with large animals is that they are stronger, faster, and more dangerous than humans. That means that the strongest, fastest, most dangerous humans needed to form cooperative groups in order to kill large animals on a regular basis.

The amount of protein, let alone fat, in most vegetables is minimal (with the exception of the protein in legumes and the fat in avocados). Vegetables are good for you, obviously, but are not sufficient for a healthy diet. Animal flesh contains lots of protein and fat, and the ability of one's body to turn those calories into stored fat is one factor in Darwin's "fittest" definition -- fat was, throughout most of history, a survival mechanism.

As for large animals, yes, they would provide a fat and protein windfall. But our prehistoric ancestors ate a lot more rabbit and squirrel and maybe even smaller rodents than they did mastadon or saber-tooth tiger.

Farming, of course, came many many millinnea later. Hunter-gather societies, by definition, did little to no farming. They hunted and gathered.

In any case, I don't know what this has to do with the point I was making.



Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2012, 05:38:12 pm »
I would like to point out that my great grandparents, grandparents, and parents were all poor folks. In their day, it was easy to find fresh meats and vegetables in their neighborhoods at low cost. Cooking a meal from scratch was far less expensive than purchasing prepared meals, or prepared ingredients. A 10lb bag of chicken wings from the local butcher used to cost way less back in the day than a 2lb bag of Stouffer's Honey Barbecue Wings in the frozen food section costs today.

With this in mind, a few years ago, I started to shop the way my grandmother taught me. Meat from the butcher. Fish from the seafood store. Vegetables from the farmers' market. Bread from the bakery. Toilet paper, toothpaste, flour, and sugar from the grocery store. What I discovered is that such habits are not at all easy to follow in urban areas. Corporate grocery stores have long ago put local food merchants out of business in most American cities. Some cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington DC have markets where people bring the fresh goods in from both the land and the sea on a daily or weekly basis. 

Now that David and I are living out in the country, its easy to shop at each local provider in turn because they are all located within a 10-mile radius, and we have 2 cars. But what if we were still living in downtown Philadelphia, and had to rely on public transportation? Yes, it would be more difficult to get at fresh food. We would have to plan our weekend activities to make sure we could get to the farmers' markets before they close. We would have to think about what we purchase, how much we purchase, what is in season, what we can carry, etc. But it would indeed be possible for us to eat fresh and healthy if we still lived in Philadelphia. So can the rest of Philadelphia's residents whether they be rich or poor.

When I was a child, nobody I knew went to a gym. We didn't know what a personal trainer was. We didn't have any running or biking trails in da 'hood. Yet somehow, we managed to get out and stay active. Truth be told: I didn't start putting on weight until I got a nice, cushy job at Verizon. When I started in 1994 (it was Bell Atlantic then) I was 29 years old, and weighed 185lbs. When I left in 2003, I weighed 240lbs. I made more than enough money to stay fit via all the modern methods, but I didn't put in the effort. I was healthier when I made $26,000/year than I was when I made $68,000/year.

As far as I'm concerned, economics have absolutely nothing to do with staying healthy for most Americans. I think it s a matter of making the right choices, and being willing to get out there and do what you can do at your income level.

Yes, these are among the factors I was referring to when I mentioned "a bunch of other trends in postwar society." Those trends affect not just our eating habits but the content of our foods, the size of our portions, our levels of activity, etc. It's very complex.

I lived in Manhattan for a year, no car. Shopping and carrying home the groceries was a hassle, but I was only shopping for two. I live in a city now, and have a car. With two teenage boys, I'm at the grocery store twice a week, filling my trunk with food -- way more than I could carry on a subway or bus. I'm not sure what I would do if I had to rely on public transportation to feed a whole family. Especially after a long day at work, the McDonald's near the bus stop would start to look pretty appealing.

In your great-grandparents', grandparents' and maybe even parents' day, da 'hood was much more filled with middle-class merchants. After the 1960s, many of those folks started moving into middle-class neighborhoods from which they'd previously been barred. Which left a hole in the supply of neighborhood butchers, greengrocers, fish mongers, etc.

Also, you realize that the difference between poor people's nutrition and rich people's nutrition has to do partly with culture and education, right? As someone who has read and written about food all my life, I can tell you how to make inexpensive meals out of legumes and cheaper vegetables and cheaper cuts of meat. But how many poor people sit around reading Cooking Light? And Jennifer Hudson, a spokeswoman for Weight Watchers, has said that growing up poor (before she got famous and lost weight), she never "knew" she was heavy because nobody would have ever considered her such. Yes, of course, a resourceful and determined and knowledgable ghetto-dweller can certainly find ways to cook healthy and exercise; sociologically speaking, that's just less likely to happen.

I'm not saying you can't get healthy if you're poor, or that you automatically do get healthy if you're rich. Rich and poor are subject to some of the same cultural influences, as well as human nature.

What I'm saying is that economic level makes a difference in the likelihood of your being overweight, and that has been a cultural transformation over the past 50 years or so. If you don't think so, I'm sorry, but you're just incorrect.


Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2012, 06:01:06 pm »
What I'm saying is that economic level makes a difference in the likelihood of your being overweight, and that has been a cultural transformation over the past 50 years or so. If you don't think so, I'm sorry, but you're just incorrect.

While I understand that there is a relationship between poverty and poor health, I see the relationship as a correlation rather than a causation. And as you have noted, more than money comes into play to make the difference.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2012, 12:00:18 pm »
While I understand that there is a relationship between poverty and poor health, I see the relationship as a correlation rather than a causation. And as you have noted, more than money comes into play to make the difference.

OK, then, what do you see as the causal relationship? If X is correlated with Y, then either X causes Y, or Y causes X, or Z causes both X and Y. Or some mixture of those.

Does poverty "cause" obesity? Not directly. A rich person can eat poorly, avoid exercise, etc. A poor person can eat healthily, exercise, etc. As I've said.

However, poor people, as I've also said, 1) have a harder time accessing healthy food 2) are less likely to be well-educated about healthy eating 3) may have a harder time moving around their neighborhoods 4) live in a culture in which heavier weight is more socially accepted ... and so on. There are many factors. My point is that poverty does cause those things I just mentioned, and those things cause obesity. There's just little room for argument there.

Since we're sharing our own experiences, let's take my middle-class situation. I have two upscale grocery stores within five minutes' drive of my house that, needless to say, have excellent produce and meat sections. I have a lower-priced grocery store 10 minutes' drive away that has pretty decent produce and OK meat. If I take my dog on a walk, I can walk 15 minutes in one direction and come to a path around a quiet lake, or 10 minutes in the other direction and come to a walking/biking path along a wooded creek that eventually leads to a big park with a waterfall, or 15 minutes in still another way and come to three lakes that are linked together by bustling biking and walking paths and parks, including a rose garden, a Japanese peace garden and a bird sanctuary. I can walk around one lake in about an hour, or bike around all three in about that same time. In between these destinations are houses -- some of them, like mine, smallish and others literal mansions -- many (of both sizes) with beautiful landscaped lawns and lovely gardens. In 10 years of walking around my neighborhood, I've never felt unsafe except once or twice walking alone in the dark and encountering someone -- but even then, nothing happened, all was fine. For years, I subscribed to Cooking Light, and even now tend to look through healthy recipes in other magazines or the newspaper or the web. There's an Anytime Fitness five minutes in one direction, a Snap Fitness in another, a YMCA 15 minutes away, and so on. And yes, there is some cultural pressure to stay thin -- more, I would guess, than in some neighborhoods but far less than, say, in Hollywood.

So how many of those factors that facilitate and encourage exercise and healthy eating does your hypothetical resident of da 'hood enjoy?




Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2012, 03:09:17 pm »
K, I'm having trouble with the quote command, but I wanted to answer your questions about "the Hood" so I'll just reply.  I don't know if where I'm living now is considered the hood, but my sister and I call it that.  Actually we live in a gentrified area of Oakland that is working class, but you'll find Victorian mansions and other homes so beautiful they'll take your breath away.  Friends and family come to visit us from all over (even a few Brokies have stayed in my home)and are amazed at the homes in my portion of "the Hood."  :) But if you go several blocks to the east of where we live you'll find yourself in the serious hood, or as we call it, "Lower Bottom."  Maya Angelou lived there. Lower Bottom is populated with goverment housing (we no longer use the term "project" in Oakland) but I'll admit, most of them were just remodeled and look like town houses. I wouldn't mind living in some of them.  But this is still considered the hood because it is low income, and as racially diverse as just about anywhere in the United States.  There are older homes in Lower Bottom, but many are over 100 years old and in disrepair.  Are there resources to provide healthy habits in the hood?  Well, Whole Foods (yeah I know most poorer people don't frequent Whole Foods)  Safeway, and Lucky  supermarkets are 5 minutes away, and most residents of low income housing have decent cars.  Shoreline Park, a newly developed park with great view of the Bay and SF is smack dab in the hood.  Lake Merritt (also being renovated) is within walking distance.  Lake Merritt has several fitness programs, a lawn bowling club and walking/running trails.  Lake Temescal is in a better neighborhood but is less than 10 minutes away from the hood.  Deep in the hood you'll find organic produce stores, several farmers markets.  This is just off the top of my head.  I could go on.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2012, 03:43:13 pm »
Are there resources to provide healthy habits in the hood?  Well, Whole Foods (yeah I know most poorer people don't frequent Whole Foods)  Safeway, and Lucky  supermarkets are 5 minutes away, and most residents of low income housing have decent cars.

The folks in that neighborhood are fortunate. A big problem in Philadelphia is the lack of decent grocery stores in many neighborhoods. And owning a car can be problematic even in a more affluent area such as my part of the Center City gayborhood because of narrow streets (that clearly predate the automobile era), inadequate parking, and high insurance rates.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2012, 03:51:58 pm »
Jeff, the insurance rates are high, but the people in my neighborhood still drive some very high-end cars.  One of my neighbors just bought a sleek new Mercedes.  I mean, people in Cali love their cars.  And gas is higher here in the Bay Area than anywhere else in the US, but people pay the prices and don't grumble much.  The streets are wide and the parking is plentiful. 

Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2012, 03:54:10 pm »
OK, then, what do you see as the causal relationship? If X is correlated with Y, then either X causes Y, or Y causes X, or Z causes both X and Y. Or some mixture of those.

I think there a whole bunch of Zs in play.

However, poor people, as I've also said, 1) have a harder time accessing healthy food 2) are less likely to be well-educated about healthy eating 3) may have a harder time moving around their neighborhoods 4) live in a culture in which heavier weight is more socially accepted ... and so on. There are many factors. My point is that poverty does cause those things I just mentioned, and those things cause obesity. There's just little room for argument there.

The items that you list are certainly more prevalent in poorer communities. But with the possible exception of #3, people of higher incomes can also be affected by these factors. As far as #3 goes, crime makes it harder for people in poor neighborhoods to get out and exercise. Out here where I live, there are no sidewalks, so people have to drive to a park just to take a walk. The local township supervisors have engaged a pair of recreation consultants, and they have advised us that the lack of sidewalks is a barrier to exercise.

I think that the culture that has evolved in poor neighborhoods puts eating well and exercising in a low-priority category...even for those who can afford it.

Since we're sharing our own experiences, let's take my middle-class situation. I have two upscale grocery stores within five minutes' drive of my house that, needless to say, have excellent produce and meat sections. I have a lower-priced grocery store 10 minutes' drive away that has pretty decent produce and OK meat. If I take my dog on a walk, I can walk 15 minutes in one direction and come to a path around a quiet lake, or 10 minutes in the other direction and come to a walking/biking path along a wooded creek that eventually leads to a big park with a waterfall, or 15 minutes in still another way and come to three lakes that are linked together by bustling biking and walking paths and parks, including a rose garden, a Japanese peace garden and a bird sanctuary. I can walk around one lake in about an hour, or bike around all three in about that same time. In between these destinations are houses -- some of them, like mine, smallish and others literal mansions -- many (of both sizes) with beautiful landscaped lawns and lovely gardens. In 10 years of walking around my neighborhood, I've never felt unsafe except once or twice walking alone in the dark and encountering someone -- but even then, nothing happened, all was fine. For years, I subscribed to Cooking Light, and even now tend to look through healthy recipes in other magazines or the newspaper or the web. There's an Anytime Fitness five minutes in one direction, a Snap Fitness in another, a YMCA 15 minutes away, and so on. And yes, there is some cultural pressure to stay thin -- more, I would guess, than in some neighborhoods but far less than, say, in Hollywood.

So how many of those factors that facilitate and encourage exercise and healthy eating does your hypothetical resident of da 'hood enjoy?

Mostly, da 'hood enjoys few of those features. If I may again point back to my local township and their recreation plans, I can tell you that if you add up all the parks, the school district athletic fields, and the Commonwealth game lands, we have around 8,000 acres of recreational space within a 10-mile radius. There are miles and miles of walking and bike paths. There are 5 gyms that I'm aware of. Yet fitness around here doesn't appear to be any better than anywhere else. And as I pointed out during the township meeting, when I lived in Philadelphia, there was a park with a track and a basketball court on the far side of the block where my apartment was situated. Many people used the park, but rarely did one see an overweight adult or child making use of the space. So I suggested that part of the money the township spends toward recreation be reserved for public service campaigns to encourage people to get out and use the facilities.

For people who live in neighborhoods that are not as feature-rich as yours, staying fit and healthy takes greater effort. There is no doubt about that. But a low-income person who lives in a feature-poor neighborhood still has options. Its a matter of finding which options are available, and putting them to use.  
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Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2012, 04:12:49 pm »
The folks in that neighborhood are fortunate. A big problem in Philadelphia is the lack of decent grocery stores in many neighborhoods. And owning a car can be problematic even in a more affluent area such as my part of the Center City gayborhood because of narrow streets (that clearly predate the automobile era), inadequate parking, and high insurance rates.

Many big cities have large populations who do not drive, nor do they own a car. In cities with decent public transit, children can grow up outside "car culture." Growing up in Boston, I started learning the public transit system as a young boy because that's primarily how mom got my brothers and I from place to place. As a teenager, I learned to use public transit to navigate the suburbs. When I moved to Philadelphia, public transit was even easier to use than in Boston. And they have even better suburban access here. As a result, I didn't have a driver's license until I was 38.
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Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2012, 04:21:40 pm »
The public transit system here is pretty good but that doesn't stop people from driving.  Most people here are licensed by the age of 18.  I believe the earliest one could get a license was 16 but they added a few years, as far as I know.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2012, 06:24:49 pm »
K, I'm having trouble with the quote command, but I wanted to answer your questions about "the Hood" so I'll just reply.  I don't know if where I'm living now is considered the hood, but my sister and I call it that.  Actually we live in a gentrified area of Oakland that is working class, but you'll find Victorian mansions and other homes so beautiful they'll take your breath away.  Friends and family come to visit us from all over (even a few Brokies have stayed in my home)and are amazed at the homes in my portion of "the Hood."  :) But if you go several blocks to the east of where we live you'll find yourself in the serious hood, or as we call it, "Lower Bottom."  Maya Angelou lived there. Lower Bottom is populated with goverment housing (we no longer use the term "project" in Oakland) but I'll admit, most of them were just remodeled and look like town houses. I wouldn't mind living in some of them.  But this is still considered the hood because it is low income, and as racially diverse as just about anywhere in the United States.  There are older homes in Lower Bottom, but many are over 100 years old and in disrepair.  Are there resources to provide healthy habits in the hood?  Well, Whole Foods (yeah I know most poorer people don't frequent Whole Foods)  Safeway, and Lucky  supermarkets are 5 minutes away, and most residents of low income housing have decent cars.  Shoreline Park, a newly developed park with great view of the Bay and SF is smack dab in the hood.  Lake Merritt (also being renovated) is within walking distance.  Lake Merritt has several fitness programs, a lawn bowling club and walking/running trails.  Lake Temescal is in a better neighborhood but is less than 10 minutes away from the hood.  Deep in the hood you'll find organic produce stores, several farmers markets.  This is just off the top of my head.  I could go on.

Well, when I said "da 'hood," I was quoting Milo, and I realize not all 'hoods, or poor neighborhoods, are alike. And many of them do offer some health-promoting features. I would guess California would be particularly progressive in terms of healthy food options -- it's one of the few places I've been to where the grocery stores are better than here. New Orleans is less progressive that way, but its poor and rich neighborhoods are unusually geographically intermingled (often called "the checkerboard"). I lived hear da 'hood where Lil Wayne grew up. There was a great little whole-foods coop in walking distance, and his poor 'hood was no further than my middle-class 'hood (i.e., walking distance) from parks with walking and biking paths.

So when I talk about the limited options for healthy food and exercise in poorer communities, I am most definitely generalizing based on studies that have been done in metropolitan areas around the country. I'm sure there are many exceptions to them.


Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2012, 06:37:36 pm »
The items that you list are certainly more prevalent in poorer communities. But with the possible exception of #3, people of higher incomes can also be affected by these factors.

Of course.

Quote
I think that the culture that has evolved in poor neighborhoods puts eating well and exercising in a low-priority category...even for those who can afford it.

No doubt. As I've said, the converse is true in some wealthy neighborhoods, those in NY and LA probably being the most representative examples. The pressure to be thin is much, much higher -- therefore, more people do it. In Minnesota, which usually ranks among the top few on those state-by-state fitness rankings, the pressure is semi-high but I'm sure it's nothing compared to what Jennifer Anniston faces.

Quote
So I suggested that part of the money the township spends toward recreation be reserved for public service campaigns to encourage people to get out and use the facilities.

Sounds like a good idea. Special events might also be helpful.

Quote
For people who live in neighborhoods that are not as feature-rich as yours, staying fit and healthy takes greater effort. There is no doubt about that. But a low-income person who lives in a feature-poor neighborhood still has options. Its a matter of finding which options are available, and putting them to use.  

Of course. I've repeated now twice, I think, that it is not impossible for a poor person to follow a healthy fitness plan. Conversely, I live in a neighborhood with all those features, yet I could still stand to lose a few.

But if, as you say, it takes greater effort and the culture doesn't encourage it, fewer people are going to do it. Which is why studies show that poorer people, on average, are heavier. We're not talking about the possibility/impossibility of any individual determined person becoming fit; we're talking about the likelihood over a larger random population.



Offline Monika

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2012, 10:04:26 pm »
If I had to work two jobs just to feed the kids at home (like many Americans do), I doubt I would have the time or the inclination to always buy and cook healthy food. I fully understand if many people are caught up in simply trying to get by and put food on the table.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2012, 11:18:48 am »
Poverty and obesity are two issues that I'm really interested in. The two don't always go hand in hand. When I visited Nepal, which is one of the poorest nations on earth, I never saw an obese person the whole time I was there (I saw a few overweight climbers, but they were from other richer countries). In fact, most Nepali people are slim or even skinny, even those who are athletic mountain climbers. Some of the tiniest people were the porters who carry heavy loads up and down the mountains. I had to look closely at the porters because otherwise I would have assumed they were young girls or boys not old enough to be doing such work.

I suspect the obesity epidemic in the U.S. and similar places is more complicated than just blaming it on poverty. To give an example, I have here a coupon for $1 off on a package of Fast Fixin'. It is a 1 1/2 bag of frozen breaded boneless processed chicken. I've found places where this chicken is sold for about $3.49 a bag. It's touted as having only white meat...I don't know what that has to do with anything. At any rate, I'm sure the chicken contains chemicals and is injected with water and/or soy oil. Then, the chicken must go through some kind of process to remove the bones and cartilage. The resulting jellylike material is mixed with fillers and processed so it's all homogeneous. Then, I'm sure salt is added. Then, we must address the breading. This probably consists of salt, sugar, cornmeal, stabilizers, and gluten, for starters. Then it is cooked and frozen. These nuggets can be microwaved and eaten right out of the bag. I shudder to think how much other stuff besides chicken a person would be eating if they popped 1 1/2 pounds of Fast Fixins in their mouth. And they would probably skip vegetables if they loaded up on that.

In contrast, groceries have a hard time even giving away whole chickens. A whole chicken costs less than $3.50 but who has the room to store it, the patience to cook and debone it, or the inclination to heat up their whole house with it?
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2012, 11:42:31 am »
I'm guessing, too, in Nepal they don't have stores on every street corner stocked with soft drinks and potato chips.  :-\

And are people even being taught anymore how to cook a whole chicken?

(I'm not sure about the dark-meat thing either, but I know that once my dad developed heart disease he was told not to eat the dark meat of chicken or turkey anymore. I guess it supposedly has more fat than white meat?)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2012, 01:48:28 pm »
Poverty and obesity are two issues that I'm really interested in. The two don't always go hand in hand. When I visited Nepal, which is one of the poorest nations on earth, I never saw an obese person the whole time I was there (I saw a few overweight climbers, but they were from other richer countries). In fact, most Nepali people are slim or even skinny, even those who are athletic mountain climbers. Some of the tiniest people were the porters who carry heavy loads up and down the mountains. I had to look closely at the porters because otherwise I would have assumed they were young girls or boys not old enough to be doing such work.

I suspect the obesity epidemic in the U.S. and similar places is more complicated than just blaming it on poverty.

Gee, I hope I have made clear in my previous posts on this thread that in no way do I "just blame" the obesity epidemic on poverty. And yes, it's clearly much more complicated than that.

As I have tried to explain, there are all kinds of factors in modern American life that cause obesity -- scientists themselves are nowhere near sorting it all out. But logically, it would include everything from the easy availability of cheap junk food to the increasingly sedentary nature of American's lives, from the promotion of dirt-cheap high-fructose corn syrup, to the car culture and growth of suburbs that all but prohibit a car-free existence, to the increase in what we consider "ordinary" serving sizes after McDonald's realized it could make more money by supersizing things (when french fries were all one smallish size, people wouldn't buy two because that seemed piggy, but they wouldn't hesitate to buy bigger sizes), and on and on and on. There are probably dozens or hundreds of factors, affecting Americans at every socioeconomic level.

All I said was that people in poor neighborhoods are more effected by some -- not all! -- of those factors than are people from wealthier neighborhoods. So statistically speaking, poor people are heavier than rich people. That's in the U.S.

(And by the way, there are other breakdowns: suburban dwellers tend to be heavier than city dwellers. Again, that's a correlation, not a causation, and one can imagine a number of reasons for it. But one likely one is that city people can walk to things more easily, and suburbanites tend to drive everywhere. And yes, that somewhat negates what I said earlier, because on the other hand suburbanites often have nice walking/biking paths and city people may be afraid to walk in their neighborhoods. So, as I said, it's complicated!)

The reason that's not the case in Nepal is similar to the reason that it wasn't the case in the U.S. or anywhere else until the past half century or less. Because those factors -- especially the easy availability of cheap junk food and sedentary car-oriented lifestyles -- are not common in Nepal, nor most other poor countries. My point was that throughout all of human history, until the past 50 years in the U.S., the poor as a group tended to be thinner than the rich. Now the reverse is true. In this country. (I don't even think it's the case in Europe -- in my observation as a visitor, Europeans are thinner, more active and lighter eaters.)

Quote
In contrast, groceries have a hard time even giving away whole chickens. A whole chicken costs less than $3.50 but who has the room to store it, the patience to cook and debone it, or the inclination to heat up their whole house with it?

My solution is to buy those chickens they roast in the store. For a couple of extra bucks, you get them already cooked. We eat the legs and wings and thighs the first night, and the second night I chop up the white meat for enchiladas or something.




I'm guessing, too, in Nepal they don't have stores on every street corner stocked with soft drinks and potato chips.  :-\

Let alone those Super Gulps or whatever they're called!

Quote
And are people even being taught anymore how to cook a whole chicken?

To be honest, even though I arely go to the trouble myself, they're actually not that difficult. Rub them with a little oil, garlic, tarragon and lemon. Cut up some potatoes and toss them in the same thing. Arrange in a pan, add an inch or so of water, cook for a couple of hours, voila.

What I cook more often are boneless, skinless thighs and breasts. Even easier, though more expensive.

Other people like that thing where you stick a full can of beer up the chicken and then grill it, but I haven't tried that myself.

Quote
(I'm not sure about the dark-meat thing either, but I know that once my dad developed heart disease he was told not to eat the dark meat of chicken or turkey anymore. I guess it supposedly has more fat than white meat?)

Dark meat indeed has more fat. But also more flavor. I prefer dark, but some people just don't like it, fat or not.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2012, 02:10:25 pm »
I was speaking about myself in that comment about blaming poverty for all the obesity. I have, or had a tendency to do that and oversimplify things. Sorry about the confusion.

About Nepal, there actually ARE big bottles of soda pop and chips easily available. In the north, almost every teahouse has rows and rows of Pringles on display as well as rows and rows of Coca Cola in the old fashioned classic bottles. But the native people don't buy them; they are for the tourists. Almost everyone all over Nepal eats the same food morning and night: a big plate of white rice with dal (lentil) soup spooned over it. Occasionally there will be some vegetable curry on the side. This is washed down with large amounts of tea, usually sweetened with some delightful cane sugar crystals and/or yak milk. The tea is served in large pots or thermoses. Most of the people in the rural areas eat breakfast at about 10:00 am and dinner around 8:00 pm...no lunch except for perhaps some tea.

In the large cities, you do see a few teenagers nowadays who are heavier and/or taller, and these are the ones you're more likely to see eating a cheeseburger or little chocolate bars.

Jeff, there aren't really "streetcorners" either. In Northern Nepal, there are no roads, only foot trails. Anything or anyone who goes there must go on foot, horse- or yak-back or by helicopter. In the cities there are main streets that are two lane, roads where only one car can pass at a time (and no sidewalks, so the many pedestrians have to walk in the street and dodge scooters, rickshaws, and cars), and on the corners and medians, trash tends to pile up.
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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2012, 02:30:46 pm »

All I said was that people in poor neighborhoods are more effected by some -- not all! -- of those factors than are people from wealthier neighborhoods. So statistically speaking, poor people are heavier than rich people. That's in the U.S.

There's also the growing problem of "food deserts" -- neighborhoods when the only stores selling food are convenience stores.  Those neighborhoods are often rural areas, where you need some kind of wheels even to get to the store; the nearest store of any kind from our house is 8 miles away. 

When Michelle Obama talked about it last year, the Right exploded in verbal farts of ridicule; however, it's a reality.  Gas prices hit the rural poor especially hard.

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2012, 02:33:27 pm »

In contrast, groceries have a hard time even giving away whole chickens. A whole chicken costs less than $3.50 but who has the room to store it, the patience to cook and debone it, or the inclination to heat up their whole house with it?

Now you've touched on two other factors: the decline of education and uncritical worship of convenience at all costs.

Cooking a whole chicken is just a few steps up from cooking oatmeal, even the edible (i.e., non-instant) variety.  No need to debone it or cut it up.  


Came back to add:

I'm not referring to a lack of education on the part of anyone here, but to the fact that a lot of people haven't been taught the basics of cooking anymore, even so far as roasting a chicken. 

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2012, 03:45:18 pm »
Came back to add:

I'm not referring to a lack of education on the part of anyone here, but to the fact that a lot of people haven't been taught the basics of cooking anymore, even so far as roasting a chicken. 

That was sort of my point. As Katharine has demonstrated in her post, it isn't that difficult, but, still, somebody has to teach you/you have to learn how to do that somewhere.

Quote
Other people like that thing where you stick a full can of beer up the chicken and then grill it, but I haven't tried that myself.

Never heard of that. I hope you mean they open the can and pour the beer inside the chicken. ...

Quote
About Nepal, there actually ARE big bottles of soda pop and chips easily available. In the north, almost every teahouse has rows and rows of Pringles on display as well as rows and rows of Coca Cola in the old fashioned classic bottles. But the native people don't buy them; they are for the tourists.

Talk about American cultural imperialism. Even if that stuff is for the tourists.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2012, 04:01:13 pm »
Never heard of that. I hope you mean they open the can and pour the beer inside the chicken. ...

Nope, they open the can and use it as a base onto which they push the upright chicken. Then they grill it. The theory is that as the beer heats and boils, the steam flavors, bastes and tenderizes the chicken from within, while the outside gets browned. Kitchen supply shops even sell holders for the beer can. Like so:



It's sometimes referred to by the mouth-watering term, "beer butt chicken."




Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2012, 04:21:41 pm »
Nope, they open the can and use it as a base onto which they push the upright chicken. Then they grill it. The theory is that as the beer heats and boils, the steam flavors, bastes and tenderizes the chicken from within, while the outside gets browned. Kitchen supply shops even sell holders for the beer can. Like so:



It's sometimes referred to by the mouth-watering term, "beer butt chicken."





I've heard of it and always wanted to try it.  As others here have pointed out, it is easy to bake or broil a chicken; far easier, I think, than preparing steak or salmon.  I'm partial to fried chicken, myself.  Frying a chicken is about as easy as baking one, but there is an art to preparing a tasty seasoning/flour mixture.  I know that frying is a lot less healthy than baking/broiling, even though I lost 110 pounds in the 80s eating as much fried chicken as I wanted.  I don't know how true this is, but I've read that Harlan Saunders (sp?) ate fried chicken every day of his life and lived to be 90.

Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #80 on: June 23, 2012, 05:00:56 pm »




OMG, that picture is hilarious. It looks like two people in a chicken singles bar who've been out on the beach way too long.

One of my few Martha Stewart moments was apple juice concentrate chicken.  I don't have a set recipe for what to flavor roast chicken with, and once I just poured a 12-ounce can of frozen (thawed) apple juice concentrate over the birds and just added a little water when basting to keep the pan from cooking dry.  They had the most amazing reddish-mahogany color and were very tasty; no photo of them unfortunately.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #81 on: June 23, 2012, 06:55:24 pm »


It's sometimes referred to by the mouth-watering term, "beer butt chicken."

O. M. G. ...  :-X

I guess now we know why the chicken crossed the road. ...

I'm afraid the favorite chicken recipe in the Wrangler family is just the one that's still on the box of Bisquick pancake mix. My dad and I would rather eat chicken prepared that way than just about any other way.
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Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #82 on: June 24, 2012, 10:44:03 am »
One, printed alongside a photo of the Russian beauty holding a tape measure across her rear, reads: 'Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2085226/PLUS-Model-Magazines-Katya-Zharkova-cover-highlights-body-image-fashion-industry.html

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/01/most-models-meet-criteria-for-anorexia-size-6-is-plus-size-magazine/

Going back to the original post by della, I'm not sure if models are getting smaller. I can't imagine anyone thinner than Twiggy, the supermodel of my era. The only thing large about her was her eyelashes. No, I just think it's more women getting larger.
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Offline milomorris

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #83 on: June 24, 2012, 11:59:30 am »
Nope, they open the can and use it as a base onto which they push the upright chicken. Then they grill it. The theory is that as the beer heats and boils, the steam flavors, bastes and tenderizes the chicken from within, while the outside gets browned. Kitchen supply shops even sell holders for the beer can. Like so:



It's sometimes referred to by the mouth-watering term, "beer butt chicken."

OH YEAH!!! Beer butt chicken is not only delicious, but its good for you. Grilling cooks off much of the fat. Now, the same friend that does the beer butt chicken also used to deep fry a whole turkey for her annual birthday party every year in May. Hey, its only once a year.
  The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #84 on: June 24, 2012, 02:06:38 pm »
Going back to the original post by della, I'm not sure if models are getting smaller. I can't imagine anyone thinner than Twiggy, the supermodel of my era. The only thing large about her was her eyelashes. No, I just think it's more women getting larger.

Women are getting larger, there's no doubt about that. But Twiggy was an anomaly. That's why she was called Twiggy. Nowadays, models who are Twiggy's size just go by whatever their name is, because they aren't unusual.

Here's an ABC News article saying that plus size, once considered sizes 12 to 18, nowadays might include size 6.

The only time I've ever worn size 6 in my adult life was when I was at my very thinnest.

In The Devil Wears Prada, one running joke is that the dragon-lady NY magazine editor calls Anne Hathaway "the fat girl." She's said to be a size 6 (though I bet the real Anne Hathwaway is smaller than that).

In 1990's Pretty Woman, Julia Roberts was a size 6.


Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #85 on: June 24, 2012, 03:16:44 pm »
Part of this may be due to the phenomenon of vanity sizing which is prevalent among women's clothing, especially in the United States where there is no standard sizing. I was reading that a woman with a 32-inch bust would have been a size 14 in 1937, a size 8 in 1967 and a size 0 today! Another example: before I had children I was wearing a size 7 and today I wear a size 8...I'm sure my body is larger than before I had children, much larger in some places. Among the more expensive lines of clothing I can easily wear a size 3, while at some places even the small size is swimming on me!
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Marge_Innavera

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Re: As women get bigger, models get smaller
« Reply #86 on: June 24, 2012, 04:31:37 pm »
When I was in my 20s (that's 1960s), there was a small clothing store chain called the 5-7-9 shop.  It was for women who wore the smallest sizes.  At that time, you'd have to do a lot of hunting for clothing below a size 5, although size 3s existed.